EricMontreal22

Yes AMC was far more successful rating wise in the early 90s--from 90 or 91 to about 95 it was almost always the number 2 show. I loved it. I also loved OLTL under Malone--some years it was prob the better show, but one thing peopel seem to forget, Malone and Griffith and Gottlieb got OLTL talked about and respected and awarded, but not hugely watched--it was consistantly the seventh or sixth highest rated show under that team according to Soap Opera Encyclopedia. I actually think Loving and AMC had a similar feel for some of this era. I became a Loving fan as a young teen because of the Carter Jones crossover month really with characters going between each show (I believe Summerish 1992 though Jeremy and Ceara had already made a brief crossover the fall before, and Jeremy would stay after Carter Jones). I also didn't find Loving purely escapist--even before Casey they delt with youth drug use, sexual abuse (though the Cooper storyline was botched I still found it powerful at the time) etc. Granted things like AVa and Jeremy later on running from GH's Faison through Universal Studios weren't very realistic but AMC and OLTL had moments like that back then. (I still think Loving, to get ratings, shoulda been aired between AMC and OLTL as intended originally). As for ANgie--I thought they messed that up by not having her come back to AMC briefly FIRST and then go to Loving. If you didn't watch Loving or see the ads and were an Angie fan, you'd have no idea she was on a new show. Still I loved her on it, even liked Jacob even if I agree with you about Charles, and I know Agnes Nixon had always been trying to get some colour on Loving (She offered to bring Carla, Ellen Holly's role over from One Life to Live when Rauch fired her but I think Ellen saw goign to a lower rated show as an insult). Jeremy's cross over, though they never really seemed to know what to do with him on Loving and his twin was pretty awful I thought, made sense too--he was a popualr character who literally had run out of stories and mates on AMC. Thanks for such good memories of the Brown/Esensen Loving era. I have a lot of 90s Loving muddled up in my mind. OK I'll agree with you it was a step backwards--but I'd argue, besdies some major cast departurs, probably from near the beginning B/E knew they were there essentially to clean house and move everyone to The City. Characters like Tony and Danny always felt introduced to me largely just so they could go on to The City. ANyway I actually at the time really liked all the dark Casey stuff, though I get your point. I didn't even remember Charles and Lorraine--all my Lorraine memories are her troubled pairing with Nick (Roscoe Borns) on City which I liked a lot. I do agree that Brown/Esensten seem best as brakdown writers--I hope they get a job in that capacity. That said I found the whole show during the serial killer storyline thrilling (I meant that that seemed to be the main purpose of their writing the show, even when they first came on it seemed to be building up to that), and while the first 6 months of The City were a mess (I heard ABC pressured them to spike the ratings by doing the Masquerader serial killer storyline but having a serial killer story on a new soap, some 5 months after you'd just had a great one on your old soap really was a poor idea), I thought once Tracey QUartermaine moved to the City it clicked. I saved the last 4 months of the show on video and rewatched it when I was pretty sick a couple of years back and still hold that opinion.

Jeremy also stopped thru Llanview on his way to COrinth from Pine Valley where he saved some of Dorian's paintings from a fire. I think COrinth?pine Valley just had more crossovers because Agnes Nixon was still more connected to them

But the serial killer plot was most of it. I remember it being quite good--but yeah that's basically all I can remember of if lol. Were they chosen solely cuz of their work on... Dynasty I trhink? I wonder where Burke came from

I'm pretty sure he said somethign similar in All Her Children--they also talk about their son playing a role

Wasn't Wisner a producer at AMC first? THey interview and talk to him a lot in the 1976 book All Her Children and I think he basically says he was there from the start. I think Wikipedia is kinda wrong with their AMC writing credits but it's hard to know. Certainly Agnes was VERY involved thru the early 90s--but there were periods where she went and wrote full time at Loving etc. Furthermore, despite what listings on here and Wikipedia say, in the actual TV credits Lorraine Broderick was HW for at least a few years in the 80s, as were others. Of course when the show would be nominated for an Emmy, Agnes would still lead the nomniation credit as head of the team (somethign I think she did thru the mid 90s even--) So it's hard to know...

And then when did B/E come in?

Ava going to Heaven seemed like a miniscule version fo Vicki on OLT's trip. LOL Still year, I was watching live then and Agnes fairly brief period was largely *great*--i think for a while it was my fave soap.

Well I did read in the 87 Schemering encyclopedia that the Jonathan Maitland character started off as apparantly very interesting and then suddenly went the campy devil route, so... Ellis prob did write the ep--it was just that Ava seemed SOO early Erica in it that I thought it was AGnes--I heard that it was under her breif return after Marland that she really became an Erica clone. I was always confused as to why Curtis burned down pins--I didn't get to watch everyday back then so... Still I really liked the whole Curtis in a cage bit--it was weird but was played well. I did love Egypt's return (even if she also was very Pine Valley--specifically Lyman's original Opal)

Oh I wanna see that *cry* lol

When was Ellis headwriter? Yeah Marland apparantly lasted just under a year. I 'd love to see some of that Maitland story--surely the first time Agnes dealt with the supernatural.

You're right it was Linden (God I suck at recognizing who played what in Loving lol)... I think I liked him more than th eoriginal Curtis (who I believe came back in 94 when AGnes Nixon wrote the bizarre story of Dante (played by the guy who plays Carlo Hesser) and his "pet" who was Curtis in a cage. Loved it

Apparantly Meg Mundy played it first for the pilot (and maybe some episodes) then Augusta Dabney from 83-91 and she returned 94-95, with inbetween Celeste playing from 91-92 and Pat Barry from 93-94 It's a treat to see ANY Loving episodes from the 80s--I didn't knwo the show or ever find old eps from before 91. I hope some more eps show up online. All I've seen are the pilot film, that 1984 episode, and this one

Was Agnes Nixon writing in Fall 1986? I know Marland was out mid 85... THe show already feels quite diff form that firs tyear episode. I always LOVED the Alden mansion set. Was that when the great Celeste Holm (from Oklahoma on Broadway etc etc) was playing the matriarch, Isabelle? I can't recognize her or not lol) *edit* my bad, that was the equally great AUgust Dabney, who i think returned to the role later on--man for a ten year long soap Loving had a LOT of recasts--I AM pretty sure that the Curtis Alden at the time was playe dby the GREAT Broadway actor Burke Moses -- also known for being in ATWT. Burke is prob best known for being the first stage Gaston in Beauty and the Beast but he's also done a lot of Sondheim musicals the Kiss me Kate revival, etc Roya as Ava certainly was even MORE like an Erica Kane clone than Lisa Peluso--I see why many found it beyond obvious when AGnes created the role.

In the Melrose Place thread you said you found all shows like it shallow and unwatchable (and yes I'm badly misquoting you ). I kinda agree with you but have a love hate thing for them--but Central Park West, when i was 14 was the first one I actively started watching when it began--and I was upset when ti never caught on lol (I wonder if it woulda been a bigger hit on Fox than Models Inc and lasted longer?)

HAahah I oddly love her. EVen after she helped ruin one of my fave novels ever, Myra Breckinridge (though I admit her and the movie are so awful they're pretty much camp) But she wasn't needed on the show...

Sylph I thought you hated these kinds of prime time soaps--or is it only when Spelling is involved? I'd actually love to buy this on DVD--I LOVED it, though I remember actually being more into it before it was overhauled--not sure if it was cuz I liked it better or if it was just that I never got back into it...

Thanks so much for that link! It's hard to find Loving on youtube (particularly cuz typing in Loving and Soap Opera brings up tons of clips from other soaps) so I never caught that! SO interesting to see a different AVa than I'm used to--shame there are no end credits with the writers

I know it's unfair to blame a soap for another soap's cancelation, but one reason I think I never gave this show a chance was I loved Loving so much, and thought the last half year of City (when the ratings were the only ratrings on ABC to start CLIMBING) was SOO good.

Ian was tied to Patrick Thornhart on OLTL right? Which I always found random as I don't think Patrick made an appearance. I think COle or Marty should make a mention of having a vampire in the family on OLTL

I don't think anything from Where the HEart Is exists online--i've searched for a while

I very briefly dated a Lance who told me once that his mom named him after a Y&R character--I guess that was it. Our running joke was at least she didn't name him SNapper

I sorta garee with both points. I did liek the actor who played Eliot (then again I liked a coupel fo the Pierce's too) but maybe not with Brooke--still his community center, the fact he was a priest, etc, were all interestiung elements that the show was missing--even though Agnes Nixon would have to list it as a failure on her part you could still see she played a part--if that makes sense

That Youtube ep is from the end of the Labine/Avila era when they were about to move to their own soap, RH--aren't they even in the credits? I agree it's a terrific episode. Sadly from reading a LOT I think this was the only era of Love of Life at least since the 50s and early 60s that would interest me much--(is RH even on SoapNet anymore? I wish I could watch it at 5am ) Of course it was the writing award Labine/Avila won for their 2 year long stint at WHere the HEart Is that got them transfered to Love of Life andother CBS show when it was canceled. And I always thought Elizabeth Page was a decent writer (her 1999 stint at AMC as co head with Agnes Nixonw as certainly better than when Jean passanante replaced her for some reason) but knowing she wrote the Caitlins has lowere dmy view of her as well

I actually really liked the Brooke/Eliot stuff though I know I'm in the HUGE minority. Although it was a big bomb, it did really feel like Agnes writing to me (maybe not an example of her at her best, but...) Wow that Linda Dano thing was a mess. (The Alex/Anna thign was almost as confusing as Proteus later on, though I did grow to love Finola, she never really played two roles well. But Dog Boy was solely Passanate I think...) Still you wonder what Agnes was thinkign when Libidizone is going on and we're still gettign amazing Bianca scenes--liek did she just try her best to ignore the rest of the show? lol

I have a good tape library of when Agnes returned as headwriter. Becca came on (as did Greens) when it was still written as Agnes Nixon headwriter solely. Soon after it was Nixon and Elizabeth Page. Then soon it was Nixon, Liz Page and Jean Passanante, in that order. And then by September, I think it was just Agnes and Passanante. I still do fault Agnes for Becca as one of her misfires...--But I agree the actor has to be there too (and I'm not sur--maybe Page, a talented lady, was writing to Agnes' stories too, though, besides Bianca's, some cute sidestories, like Marian being jealous of the Queen's tea and trying to wheedle her way in seemed classic Agnes)