Prime: LOTR: The Rings of Power

[janea4old]

The focus so far is the developing evil.  I don't really want to watch that at this time in my life.  I suppose there will be victories of the Light but I don't know how much the series will show that. I need something about hope and universal spirit.  

So far the only character that seems really "off" from the books is Gil-Gilad.   I think it might have worked with a better actor, but this actor doesn't seem to get it, so far.

[I Am A Swede]

What's feminist about turning Galadriel into something she never was by saddling her with traditionally "masculine" characteristics? I don't think you can find a Tolkien-fan who would argue against Galadriel being one of the most important and major characters on this show. She is the most powerful elf left in Middle-Earth after the end of the First Age. But her strength and power does not lie in sword fighting. That is not how Tolkien ever wrote her. And I think it shows a lack of imagination from the writers if they can't make her a strong, feminine heroine unless they put a sword in her hand and turn her into some sort of Xena, warrior princess. That is implicitly stating that those characters traits are more worth than strength of spirit, wisdom and intelligence. Galadriel is the foe that Sauron fears the most, not because she's skilled with a sword, but because she can see through him, she can read his thoughts and mind. That was one of the things that Peter Jackson got right in The Hobbit movies. And if criticizing this show for altering this in favour of turning her into a impulsive, hotheaded swordfighter is misogyny then so be it.

And as for mass spamming with negative reviews... I have seen a vast number of reviews which are glorifying this show to such an extent that it makes a former poster here seem subdued in his praise of Jean Passanante and Shelley Altman. Don't tell me that those are made in good faith. But this is not something that anyone seems to be willing to talk about. No, let's all just focus on the reviews that criticize the show and label them incel, misogynists, racists etc.  Do those reviews exist? Sadly yes, and that sucks. The worst thing is that their existence has given Amazon the perfect excuse to ignore the genuine criticism that this show has received. "Who cares what they think, they're all just a bunch of misogynistic racists" 

You say that you don't care about LOTR, and that's fine. But a lot of us do, we care a lot, and we're upset about this show and the way it twists Tolkien's characters and his world into something unrecognizable. They could have created something of their own, but they wanted to use the Tolkien name and take advantage of the fanbase that already existed. A fanbase that is very protective of Tolkien and his world. And now they are offended that we didn't just silently accept the way they treated Tolkien and his creation, so they resort to labeling any criticism the work of right wing trolls. 

This show will, in all likelihood, still be a success, so Amazon won't care one way or the other. The thing that is sad though is that this show will now attach itself to the Tolkien name, and maybe it will be the first thing with his name on it that some people will experience. And that might lead them to think that this is actually something that he would have written, and that is a tragedy.                                                                                                                                                                                                          

That doesn't alter the fact that it was an incredibly stupid plot point and it makes Galadriel look even more stupid.

[janea4old]

While watching, I had a different browser tab open with the "Tolkien Gateway" (a Tolkien wiki).   
I used closed captioning because I need it.  Each time a new character, place, or phrase is mentioned, I check TolkienGateway to see if it's an actual Tolkien thing or if was created for Amazon.
It will tell me if it's part of the "Legendarium" or not.
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Legendarium

This is quicker than looking it up in the appendices of the books. 
I've read the books a zillion times in the past 40 years ... but it's been at least 10 years since my last reading, so I don't have everything memorized!

Edited September 5, 2022 by janea4old

[Vee]

Whether or not Galadriel could have ever fought in a war thousands of years prior to LOTR seems to be up for dispute among Tolkien fans and scholars, because not all of them seem to agree with you. And whether it's actually feminist or not is not the point - any time any show or piece of media features a female lead or heroine in what could be even suggested as a 'feminist' role, or a minority protagonist, these trolls come calling and start spamming all comments sections and review websites. LOTR is no different, and that's the point of what we're talking about here.

Then take it up with the professional reviewers. I for one have not seen many reviews that embrace it with the passion of Jonnysbro.

Okay, but who are you speaking for? Because it doesn't seem like the entire LOTR fanbase agrees with you.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Vee

[I Am A Swede]

I don't care about other shows. I'm talking about this show, and the knee-jerk reaction of media and Amazon to use the term misogynist about people who complain about Galadriel. "Oh, they object to the show having a strong female lead. Who cares what they think, they're all just a bunch of misogynists who can't stand seeing strong women on screen" Because the criticism here is not about having a strong, female lead. It's about how that strong, female lead is depicted. I think most people expected Galadriel to have a major part in this show, but they object to the way she's portrayed. That's not misogynistic

Of course it's not professional reviewers. I'm talking about ordinary people who are just as outrageous in their praise as undoubtedly some are in their criticism. But it's only the critical ones who are being called names and whose reviews are (at times probably correctly, but not always) deleted.

Did I say that I was speaking for the entire fanbase? Even you can hardly deny though that there has been a massive outpouring of criticism towards this show? Or are you going to do what the media seem to do and try to label most, if not all of it, as the ravings of trolls, racists and misogynists? I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Most of the critical reviews I've seen have been far more eloquent than most of the positive ones. They mostly seem to consist of a number of variations on "This is awesome and the bestest tv-show ever, and the people who say otherwise are simply sad trolls" And that's both ordinary people and professional critics.

 

Now, I don't think that you and I are ever going to see things the same way regarding this, so I see no need to keep this discussion going and bore everyone else. Let's just agree to disagree and move on. At least that's what I intend to do.

[janea4old]

I'm a complete Tolkien fan, been reading since I was a girl.  I'm an older woman and I'm a feminist.   And I watched the first two episodes.

I know you said you don't have Amazon, and I understand. Sometimes it's difficult or unaffordable to subscribe to the streaming services. No judgment here from me.

It's just that you're criticizing something you said you haven't watched yet.  

I prefer that things follow the "legendarium" (The Tolkien wiki says the "legendarium" is different from "canon" because Tolkien sometimes wrote differing versions of the same thing so it's hard to say which version he considered to be "canon". The Legendarium takes into consideration all of the things Tolkien himself wrote, including various versions.)

I understand that you are critiquing the *idea* of Galadriel as a warrior--  because she doesn't appear that way in Tolkien's writings.  But you haven't seen how they are depicting her.  Reading recaps isn't the same as experiencing Morfydd Clark's portrayal on the screen.

I did watch. I think Morfydd Clark is doing a great job (so far) as Galadriel in the first two episodes.  She makes it believable (to me). They way they are doing it, I believe it's plausible that Galadriel was a warrior in the Second Age, and then matured into being only a queen of magic later on.  The beginning episodes of this Amazon series are BEFORE the three Eleven Rings are forged.  It will be interesting to see if her character changes once she gets her Ring.

As a girl and young woman growing up decades ago, I loved Tolkien.  I read Tolkien and Lewis so much that I felt a part of those worlds, and sometimes my dreams at night would take place in Narnia or the lands of Tolkien.  But I wanted more relatable women characters. I wanted to see female warriors. I loved Eowyn.

I know Tolkien was capturing some of the flavor of Norse mythology and the English countryside in his writings -- but I think he would have written women differently if he were alive today.  We will never know.

Edit to add:  Tolkien was writing "Faerie" as he called it ... another Realm.  Sure it had the flavor of Norse mythology and the English countryside.  And yes he met frequently with Lewis while they were writing, and Lewis said that Numinor is Atlantis (although Lewis misspelled Númenor).  But I don't think Tolkien's Faerie is intended to be an exact correspondence to earthly myths and legends -- but instead they are their own Realm.  An otherworldly Realm that has parallels but isn't exactly the same.   Maybe earthly myths and Tolkien's Faerie are both derived from the same spiritual/philosophical Source that cannot be concretely explained?

If Tolkien were still alive and could see more of this Realm - perhaps he'd see more of what women do.  

Edited September 6, 2022 by janea4old

[Noel]

LOTR - Rings of Power: S01E02

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[janea4old]

The Blue Wizards came in the Second Age, in one version of what Tolkien himself wrote.
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Wizards#Other_versions_of_the_legendarium

Re: the Stranger who arrived with a meteor -- I don't know. So far he acts like Radagast.   But he came on a fiery meteor and was fascinated by fireflies, which might have hinted at a connection to Gandalf except that the Elven Ring of Fire had not yet been created.  And. as you said, Gandalf and Radagast don't arrive yet.

If he ends up with a friend, then I'd guess he's one of the two Blue Wizards.
One of the Harfoot characters in these first two episodes came from a village "in the east" which is the direction the Blue Wizards headed.

Or maybe one of the Istari secretly (without telling anyone) comes to Middle Earth during the Second Age, then goes back to Valinor later.  And then officially comes to Middle Earth in the Third Age.   It's not canon in any way, but  I suppose Saruman could have been secretly snooping about around the time of the forging of the rings.

I read some interviews. The actress who plays the Harfoot girl who finds the Stranger -- she was not told who his character actually is ... until well into filming some episodes.  They kept it under wraps.  I guess the actor himself and very few others knew who his character really was.

The actor says it's interesting reading all the guesses as to who his character really is.

But maybe this character is not an Istari at all...  Maybe he is some other species of being, that is not in the books.  Maybe a different form of a Maia or something.

Edited September 7, 2022 by janea4old

[I Am A Swede]

That may be, but Amazon doesn't have the rights to use any of that. They only have the right to use The Appendices, and in those it clearly states, in the section "The Tale of Years" under "The Third Age": When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-Earth.

[Noel]

LOTR - Rings of Power: S01E03

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[Noel]

LOTR - Rings of Power: S01E04

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[Noel]

LOTR - Rings of Power: S01E05

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[I Am A Swede]

Well, well, well.....

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Apparently Amazon isn't happy with the reception this show has gotten. They deleted thousands of already approved reviews on the Prime Video website, practically all of them one-star reviews. But people noticed this and called Amazon out on social media over it, and lo and behold, shortly thereafter the reviews that had mysteriously vanished were back....

 

Seriously, the behind the scenes of this whole project is far more interesting than the actual show. It's been such a train-wreck....

• Starting with Amazon's decision to make a tv-show about the Second Age, when the only thing they had the rights to that in any way involved the Second Age were the Appendices to the Lord of the Rings. And to make a 5-season long tv-show based on the information the Appendices contain is almost like adapting a book when you can only use what you can read on the back cover. And for that Amazon payed 250 million dollars!! 
• Then appointing as showrunners two virtual unknowns, whose previous experiences were as uncredited writers on Star Trek Beyond! Surely they could have found someone with a little more experience?
• Having renowned Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey onboard and then firing him.
• Using Simon Tolkien as a series consultant. He once stated that he thought the Peter Jackson films were too faithful to the source material....
• Moving the entire show from New Zealand to the UK, to enormous expense.
• The so-called "Tolkien superfans" video. The most cringeworthy video I think I have ever seen. Ever! (Ironically, these so-called "superfans" have not posted anything Rings of Power-related on their social media accounts)
• Amazon offering sponsorships to a YouTube channel, but not calling back when said YouTube channel emphasized that he would still give his honest opinion about the show, and not allow Amazon to dictate what he would say. (It makes you wonder about the potential bias of other channels who have praised the show....)
• Amazon-owned IMDb hiding (or even deleting) any reviews lower than 6/10. (At least they did for a while, I'm not sure this practice is still in effect.)
• Withholding the opportunity to review the show on Amazon's own site for 72 hours. To stop negative review-bombing they said. It went on for 7 days!
• Continuing the narrative of racist review bombing, even though almost none of the reviews I've seen after the show's premiere have made any mention of that. Most of the criticism have been about poor pacing, bad writing, stilted dialogue and unlikeable characters.
• The very odd press release they did, boasting that 25 million had sampled the show during the first 24 hours, without ever specifying exactly what they meant by sampled. And after that...nothing. No more audience numbers have been presented. It makes you wonder why, doesn't it?

Edited September 23, 2022 by I Am A Swede

[Noel]

LOTR - Rings of Power: S01E06

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[Noel]

LOTR - Rings of Power: S01E07

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