So what if they do? Why is it such a personal affront (or "offense" in simple speak) to you that viewers defend Liz? Believe me, nobody cares about you that much to make it personal. No one is saying "Oooh, I hope Liz does something horrible so I can defend her JUST to get back at Skin!" Those of us see Liz's point of view defend her or speak up for her because of just that. We get where she's coming from. Ok, so you don't for whatever reason. Congrats. However, sitting up here, acting as if people have no right to defend a character you hate and they need to stop doing it... or else, by golly, you're going to run into the ground ALL of her sins -- even if it means twisting other people's words, embellishing or flat out denying certain events that happened in the story in order to support your hatred of Liz and silence all of her defenders is a waste of time and bandwith. Nobody's going to stop defending of "excusing" Liz. Not only that, but continuously BASHING her isn't going to make people stop, either. And this is coming from a staunch Carly hater. I'm aware that bitch is here to stay and she has her fans and no amount of my bashing is going to change that nor will it stop them from defending her.

I'm not even a big Liz fan but what happened to her could've happened to any mother. Most mother's think they can turn their back on their four year olds in familiar surroundsing for jsut a minute to do things like read the mail. Liz has done things in the past that I couldn't stop talking about however Luke deserves the blame for speeding down a neighborhood street after having a few drinks. and running down his grandchild.

Oh look typical Monica

Can Sonny just die?

No, he, Jason, Carly and Sam will be the last character to close out GH, sadly

"My sister talks like that" Lol sounds like a add-lib.

I wish Sam would/could kick Heather's ass across the diner.

Are the writers laying the ground work for Viki to make an appearance?

So what if they do? Why is it such a personal affront (or "offense" in simple speak) to you that viewers defend Liz? Believe me, nobody cares about you that much to make it personal. No one is saying "Oooh, I hope Liz does something horrible so I can defend her JUST to get back at Skin!" Those of us see Liz's point of view defend her or speak up for her because of just that. We get where she's coming from. Ok, so you don't for whatever reason. Congrats. However, sitting up here, acting as if people have no right to defend a character you hate and they need to stop doing it... or else, by golly, you're going to run into the ground ALL of her sins -- even if it means twisting other people's words, embellishing or flat out denying certain events that happened in the story in order to support your hatred of Liz and silence all of her defenders is a waste of time and bandwith. Nobody's going to stop defending of "excusing" Liz. Not only that, but continuously BASHING her isn't going to make people stop, either. And this is coming from a staunch Carly hater. I'm aware that bitch is here to stay and she has her fans and no amount of my bashing is going to change that nor will it stop them from defending her.

There is no affront, no one is making anything personal except the posters who bring my personal name into things because they can't stand an opposing opinion about the precious Liz. The excuses are just that though, excuses and they need to be revealed as such. My entire point in bringing up Liz's short comings is because the show goes threw the greatest pains know to man in order to keep her as the best, most amazing, woman PC has ever seen. Even when she is as wrong as sin. We've had months on top of months of posters exclaiming that Luke is a horrible person who smirks at the death of a child, yet there's no talk about the fact that Liz is virtually an absent Mom who doesn't watch, care for or protect her children. Why is Luke constantly the one in the wrong and yet their is no censure on the fact that Elizabeth has almost killed all of her children in one way or another either by letting them play with matches and start fires or by letting them roam in the street after hours? Why are there no comments about Liz being a dead beat mom who shouldn't have had children because she can't care for or protect them? You have people like Carly getting called out for her bad parenting but no one says anything to Liz about her horrible child rearing. Why are their no comments demonizing Liz or at least conversations that say she is wrong for letting things happen that should not have happened? Why is it that the posters who criticize Liz's child rearing skills are said to be "misogynistic" and "disgusting" instead of taking the point at merit? Why are the counter views of Liz not seen as important as the posts where Luke is the most horrible being in the universe? Why does Liz get off free for her neglect while Luke gets all the blame? Etc.

These are real things people need to start considering instead of crying "poor Liz" whenever anything bad happens to her. The same thing happens whenever she does anything that's not kosher. It's the same fifteen thousand lines of defense whenever anyone says anything bad about her. It's always Liz has done nothing wrong, it's not her fault -- well It's never her fault apparently. It's the same as it was for the JR fans on AMC, nothing was ever his fault, and they blamed anyone who ever opposed him instead of seeing him as the flawed, disgusting person he truly was. It was always everyone else's fault, not his. It's the same here. Viewer enabling at it's finest.

Edited May 24, 201213 yr by Skin

Viewer enabling at it's finest.

This is the very reason why soap viewers are considered to be stupid as hell. Sh!t that wouldn't fly with viewers when it comes to prime time characters are being enabled/defended to death because some viewers refuse to remove their heads from their favorite character's* ass.

*which damn sure isn't limited to Elizabeth Webber.

This is the very reason why soap viewers are considered to be stupid as hell. Sh!t that wouldn't fly with viewers when it comes to prime time characters are being enabled/defended to death because some viewers refuse to remove their heads from their favorite character's* ass.

*which damn sure isn't limited to Elizabeth Webber.

It depends on the show. Abusive behavior on Gossip Girl was defended by one of the main producers. People spent plenty of time defending the vile acts on trash like Rescue Me, including their no-means-yes rape sequence.

Edited May 24, 201213 yr by CarlD2

It depends on the show. Abusive behavior on Gossip Girl was defended by one of the main producers. People spent plenty of time defending the vile acts on trash like Rescue Me, including their no-means-yes rape sequence.

Every critique that I'd heard or read about that Rescue Me rape scene was dripping with condemnation. And while that GG producer was stupid enough to justify Chuck's tantrum resulting in Blair being physically harmed, I haven't heard anyone try to justify that relationship at all. At best, Chuck and Blair have been described as classic dysfunction.

Otherwise, I've never read or seen any viewer blindly worship a character on a prime time show - certainly not at the level that some soap viewers proudly enable soap characters.

Edited May 24, 201213 yr by VirginiaHamilton

Every critique that I'd heard or read about that Rescue Me rape scene was dripping with condemnation. And while that GG producer was stupid enough to justify Chuck's tantrum resulting in Blair being physically harmed, I haven't heard anyone try to justify that relationship at all. At best, Chuck and Blair have been described as classic dysfunction.

I think there was a more mixed reaction to a lot of the ugliness on Rescue Me. I saw people praising stories about a gay man being beaten until he was put into a coma, among other horrors. In primetime, people will enjoy a lot of bile if it is seen as being "real" or "honest" or "three-dimensional." This is also what used to get Todd a lot of praise on OLTL in the 90's, because he was supposed to be so edgy and true and all the rest.

Will you marry me?

I just can't take one more post here or anywhere else about how Luke killed a child who was inevitably dead because of his negligent mother. In my neck of the woods, CPS would have paid Liz a visit and possibly remove Cam and Aidan from her home until an investigation was complete. People are acting like its okay for a 4 year old to be in the middle of the road at night. If that's the case, where are the "Beware Of Small Children after 6 pm" signs?

Liz's negligence is why Jake is dead!

ANDREA

I love Liz. But, I agree with this post 100%. She wasn't watching him. She was doing her own thing flipping her wig about Aiden's paternity at time. I'm sure she never thought Jake would run off and get hit. But, he did.

When you're a parent. You can't be vigilant 100% of the time. But, you at least have to try. Liz wasn't even trying that night.

The whole storyline was tragic for everyone.

Edited May 24, 201213 yr by weareclouds

This is the very reason why soap viewers are considered to be stupid as hell. Sh!t that wouldn't fly with viewers when it comes to prime time characters are being enabled/defended to death because some viewers refuse to remove their heads from their favorite character's* ass.

*which damn sure isn't limited to Elizabeth Webber.

It all pretty much comes down to how "popular" the character is. If the fans like the person enough they won't care what they do because they just like the character. However if anything bad happens to said popular character they will be the first ones condemning what the person did to their favorite character, even if "their character" did worse. It's illogical but I have seen that happen numerous times in the soap community. There is almost no concern with right and wrong, it just comes down to who said person likes and then they will forever excuse what their favorite has done, which happens all the time. My main point with regards to my "Liz hate" is that I do not believe that Elizabeth should be above reproach when she does horrible things and it shouldn't be excused away or brushed under the rug when she is acting circumspect just because she is awesome sauce Liz on PC.

Edited May 24, 201213 yr by Skin

The whole storyline was tragic for everyone.

Considering how many people in the story got over it in no time, the only real tragedy was for the viewers who had to sit through it.

I think there was a more mixed reaction to a lot of the ugliness on Rescue Me. I saw people praising stories about a gay man being beaten until he was put into a coma, among other horrors. In primetime, people will enjoy a lot of bile if it is seen as being "real" or "honest" or "three-dimensional." This is also what used to get Todd a lot of praise on OLTL in the 90's, because he was supposed to be so edgy and true and all the rest.

I can't comment on the other Rescue Me storylines, as I never watched the show. The only thing that ever reached any mainstream outcry (at least to a level that a non-watcher like me would hear of it) was the rape scene.

With that said, I see nothing wrong with real, honest, and three-dimensional characters/storylines at all. My issue stems from the stuck-on-stupid adoration of said characters/storylines from viewers who refuse to acknowledge that the characters that they enjoy are not good people and do not/have not done good things. I don't see that among primetime TV viewers, while I see plenty of that with daytime soap viewers.

It all pretty much comes down to how "popular" the character is. If the fans like the person enough they won't care what they do because they just like the character. However if anything bad happens to said popular character they will be the first ones condemning what the person did to their favorite character, even if "their character" did worse. It's illogical but I have seen that happen numerous times in the soap community. There is almost no concern with right and wrong, it just comes down to who said person likes and then they will forever excuse what their favorite has done, which happens all the time. My main point with regards to my "Liz hate" is that I do not believe that Elizabeth should be above reproach when she does horrible things and it shouldn't be excused away or brushed under the rug when she is acting circumspect just because she is awesome sauce Liz on PC.

This is it in a nutshell, though I'll add that as much as folks blame an EP or HW for fvcking up their soap, some are just as guilty for justifying the sh!t that occurs onscreen while continuing to tune in.

In regards to Liz, I don't hate her (though I understand why plenty do). I hate the clusterfuck of a character that she's become, as she is one of this show's biggest disappointments. As far as her being "above reproach", she is simply one out of many characters that some viewers have a blind loyalty to - to the detriment of the actual show.

With that said, I see nothing wrong with real, honest, and three-dimensional characters/storylines at all. My issue stems from the stuck-on-stupid adoration of said characters/storylines from viewers who refuse to acknowledge that the characters that they enjoy are not good people and do not/have not done good things. I don't see that among primetime TV viewers, while I see plenty of that with daytime soap viewers.

I don't mind three-dimensional characters, but I often think that someone acting like a [!@#$%^&*] is passed off as honest and real. The problem is that it's just buzzwords for hero worship. Tony Soprano, for instance - no matter how much we were reminded of his being a sociopath and a monster, many always loved him, loved that he had whores, that he killed people, hated his family for burdening him, etc.