Y&R fanbases are more flexible than DOOL/GH "True Love" fanbases.

Victor/Nikki, Victor/Ashley & Victor/Hope all had separate fanbases that didn't need "True Love" to justify their existance.

It's only been since Jack Smith (and especially LML) that "True Love" fanbases really started being catered to on Y&R.

For instance that's why a lot of Michael/Lauren fans feel unjustly "betrayed" now that the non-Kevin Baldwin Fishers are no longer eating the show.

I agree with a lot of this.

Way back in the 80s, I was an Ashley-Victor "fan" in the sense that I liked them best together, but I didn't obsess endlessly about them. I think it was the way William J. Bell wrote the show. These people (including Victor!) were multifaceted characters, and their feelings and POVs evolved over time. I never wasted time wondering who Victor's "True Love" was because Nikki, Ashley and Hope were so different, they appealed to different aspects of Victor. It was entirely believeable that Victor loved Nikki and Hope at the same time but completely differently, and not feel that any of these three characters were diminished by the predicament in which they found themselves.

My view is that things changed when Mac and Billy (as portrayed by Ashley Bashioum and David Tom) became star-crossed teen lovers. They were popular (and well written, I thought), and maybe Jack Smith figured the show should try to replicate that popularity with other, older pairings. He had something with Nick & Sharon but adding Phyllis to the mix really took that story to new highs (and later terrible lows).

I once wrote a thread on old SON, back when Alden/Smith were HWing the show, complainng about the lack of convincing love scenes. I said that it seemed like the show was embarrassed to ask their actors to "lower" themselves to play out sentimental love stories. I realize with regret that this is not Y&R's thing at all. Bell was a precise, surgical writer fascinated by psychology -- like, what makes people act the way they do in extreme circumstances? Even love stories were observed coolly and analytically. I should have appreciated Y&R at that time for what it was instead of wanting it to become like other soaps with their swoony supercouples that were over-exposed and burned out too soon!

Re: Michael and Lauren, I am no Fisher Baldwin fan but I do think that M&L were the last couple to come together and establish their own love story without belittling the relationships they had before they met. It was a maturely written pairing. I still see them as a viable couple because of it.

Way back in the 80s, I was an Ashley-Victor "fan" in the sense that I liked them best together, but I didn't obsess endlessly about them. I think it was the way William J. Bell wrote the show. These people (including Victor!) were multifaceted characters, and their feelings and POVs evolved over time. I never wasted time wondering who Victor's "True Love" was because Nikki, Ashley and Hope were so different, they appealed to different aspects of Victor. It was entirely believeable that Victor loved Nikki and Hope at the same time but completely differently, and not feel that any of these three characters were diminished by the predicament in which they found themselves.

Exactly.

My view is that things changed when Mac and Billy (as portrayed by Ashley Bashioum and David Tom) became star-crossed teen lovers.

It wasn't Billy & Mackenzie that changed things.

They (and pre-sappy JT/Colleen) were legit supercouples in the grand tradition of Bill Bell & Daytime in general.

It was Jack Smith's insta pairings that really did changed things for the worst.

Forced pairings like John/Gloria, Michael/Lauren (to a certain extent), Nick/Giggly, Brad/Victoria, Jill/Elliot & Paul/Ashley to the detriment of the rest of the canvas really ran the show into the ground

I once wrote a thread on old SON, back when Alden/Smith were HWing the show, complainng about the lack of convincing love scenes. I said that it seemed like the show was embarrassed to ask their actors to "lower" themselves to play out sentimental love stories. I realize with regret that this is not Y&R's thing at all. Bell was a precise, surgical writer fascinated by psychology -- like, what makes people act the way they do in extreme circumstances? Even love stories were observed coolly and analytically. I should have appreciated Y&R at that time for what it was instead of wanting it to become like other soaps with their swoony supercouples that were over-exposed and burned out too soon!

One the most amazing things about Y&R's characters (pre-Smith/LML/Maria) was their ability to be multi faceted.

Their lives weren't reduced only to who they slept with (even the vixens) which gave them a lot of staying power.

It's how Sheila could stay on canvas for 3 years then JUMP TO ANOTHER SHOW & thrive for ANOTHER 5/6 years.

Bill (and later Kay) were also never shy about letting characters have more than one "Great Love".

Victor/Nikki may be Y&R's primary supercouple but Victor had legit relationships with Ashley, Hope & (to a lesser extent) Diane.

Same with Jack, Katherine, Traci, Paul, Olivia, Jill, Cricket, Nina, etc.

Re: Michael and Lauren, I am no Fisher Baldwin fan but I do think that M&L were the last couple to come together and establish their own love story without belittling the relationships they had before they met. It was a maturely written pairing. I still see them as a viable couple because of it.

Agreed.

But Michael/Lauren became a problem when they became Michael/Lauren/Kevin/Gloria/Tom/Eden/River/Fen & Lauren's entire pre-Michael life was pretty much ignored (outside of a few rare instances) to make her a constant Baldwin/Fisher (particularly Kevin & Gloria) apologist.

But Michael/Lauren became a problem when they became Michael/Lauren/Kevin/Gloria/Tom/Eden/River/Fen & Lauren's entire pre-Michael life was pretty much ignored (outside of a few rare instances) to make her a constant Baldwin/Fisher (particularly Kevin & Gloria) apologist.

I could do without all the Fisher-Baldwins (although I do have an irrational fondness for Gloria and Bardwell together).

If Y&R could just have Michael, Lauren and Cricket interacting together, along with Nina and Paul, that is so much tangled history right there (I was going to mention Traci and Brad but one is rarely seen, the other was killed off in the most petty, horrible circumstances). Michael loves Lauren, this is his first truly mature relationship, and she loves him back. But Christine was his obsession for over a decade. And Lauren sure as hell doesn't take kindly to sharing -- she didn't enjoy it when Paul was mooning over Cricket, either.

I'm not a soap writer -- I'm just saying that when we look at the characters and their histories that WJB laid down, this kind of SL reckoning writes itself. To think Lauralee Bell was wasted on propping up Ronan!

*banner coming soon*

Man I better see one for November!

OH MY GOD.....Damn it! I made one, too. And I really liked it. Ever since we don't see the first post on every page anymore(which i HATE), I keep forgetting. Don't worry, I'll do one for Nov.

I could do without all the Fisher-Baldwins (although I do have an irrational fondness for Gloria and Bardwell together).

Had Chapman's Gloria continued to be written & acted like Joan Van Ark's Gloria it wouldn't be a problem.

However once she pretty much destroyed the Abbotts & everyone else in GC became complete idiots to justify her constant schemes? It was time for her to go.

If Y&R could just have Michael, Lauren and Cricket interacting together, along with Nina and Paul, that is so much tangled history right there (I was going to mention Traci and Brad but one is rarely seen, the other was killed off in the most petty, horrible circumstances). Michael loves Lauren, this is his first truly mature relationship, and she loves him back. But Christine was his obsession for over a decade. And Lauren sure as hell doesn't take kindly to sharing -- she didn't enjoy it when Paul was mooning over Cricket, either.

Exactly.

Paul/Michael have a relationship, Michael/Cricket have a relationship. Lauren/Paul have a relationship, Cricket/Lauren have a relationship, Nina/Michael have a relationship, Nina/Cricket have a relationship & Nina/Paul have a relationship.

Those relationships write themselves.

I'm not a soap writer -- I'm just saying that when we look at the characters and their histories that WJB laid down, this kind of SL reckoning writes itself. To think Lauralee Bell was wasted on propping up Ronan!

Yep!

Y&R didn't get to number one by trying to be ABC.

So the idea that it will stay number one by being ABC is ridiculous.

Edited October 31, 201114 yr by DeeeDee