I think of so many recent plot points on shows... like Katie's heart attack on Bold and Beautiful, the crash on General Hospital, everyone returning on All My Children... and I wonder how much more shock value they would have had if we DIDN'T SEE THEM COMING!!

What if the spoilers had said "A major event interrupts Katie and Bill's argument" or "Carly and Jason encounter disaster while searching for Jocelyn?"

Dramatic enough, yes. Not too much information spoiled, however.

I go back and forth on Maureen's death. On one hard it left long-term damage, but on the other hand, it produced some amazing performances and the immediate aftermath was written with such heart and eloquence. I don't think we ever saw writing like that again on daytime afterwards.

I do think the show suffered without that central moral figure in years to come though, but I could also see how focus groups might not consider these types of characters important (as most in those groups probably wouldn't watch these shows long-term anyway).

Oh absolutely--back from the grave stories, etc, would have a LOT more impact if spoilers didn't exist, same with deaths and characters leaving.

The list complains abotu lack of merchandise for soaps--this has been a big problem particularly when DVDs (even if just of special episodes) would, I believe sell well enought o profit, but there were a lot more soap tie ins, in the 80s and 90s, than they list. I have the two AMC games, ABC Daytime trading cards, about 10 different romance novel style books based on soap storylines, the tie in novels characters were meant to write (killing Club by Marcie, the awful Charm by Kendall, etc), those coffee table books that nearly every soap got in the late 90s, etc.

If Iris had never been spun-off to Texas, I wonder if/when AW would have lost the title of NBC's most popular soap to DOOL. (AW still remained the most popular soap on the network even after the 90 minute expansion.)

Was Bev ever asked to return to AW?

I guess she got on well with Gail Kobe and Pam Long at Texas, as they would later create Alexandra on GL specifically for her. I do remember she was briefly asked about Carmen Duncan taking over the role of Iris, and said she was happy where she was at [GL], but of course, that changed...

I think of so many recent plot points on shows... like Katie's heart attack on Bold and Beautiful, the crash on General Hospital, everyone returning on All My Children... and I wonder how much more shock value they would have had if we DIDN'T SEE THEM COMING!!

What if the spoilers had said "A major event interrupts Katie and Bill's argument" or "Carly and Jason encounter disaster while searching for Jocelyn?"

Dramatic enough, yes. Not too much information spoiled, however.

I don't think it would make a difference. There are about 10 car crashes a year on GH. There are about 10 disasters a year on GH. Nothing ever changes.

The Katie heart attack story was so horribly and offensively written that spoiling it probably saved some viewers from being stunned by how bad it was.

If you make viewers care, then they will continue to care whether they know what happens or not.

Edited September 8, 201114 yr by CarlD2

If you make viewers care, then they will continue to care whether they know what happens or not.

Pretty much!

I go back and forth on Maureen's death. On one hard it left long-term damage, but on the other hand, it produced some amazing performances and the immediate aftermath was written with such heart and eloquence. I don't think we ever saw writing like that again on daytime afterwards.

I do think the show suffered without that central moral figure in years to come though, but I could also see how focus groups might not consider these types of characters important (as most in those groups probably wouldn't watch these shows long-term anyway).

I think it was a very short-sighted move because of what was happening to the canvas outside of Maureen. They'd lost Beverlee McKinsey and Kimberly Simms, they were losing Beth Ehlers, they'd just recast Blake (who had been a pivotal character until the Keifer recast), and they were struggling to write for most of JFP's additions like Jenna, Nick, and Eve. 1993 was a year where a lot of the last foundation slipped away and JFP essentially said, "Hey, it doesn't matter, because I have cool friends." Which led to Buzz and Tangie even as the show had no idea what to do with them.

I think they could have waited six more months, or a year, to write Maureen out, and it might have left less of a hole. It was just very very bad timing.

Edited September 8, 201114 yr by CarlD2

If you make viewers care, then they will continue to care whether they know what happens or not.

That underestimates the importance of cliff hangers. Caring is not "I have got to see what happens next!", and sitting at the edge of your seat in anticipation is part of what makes one care. If everyone knew who shot JR in advance, it would not have been the biggest event in serial history, singlehandedly creating the modern idea of a season finale that all shows still cling to 30 years later including sitcoms, and would not have made Dallas such an international sensation.

There is an element of razzle dazzle you need to wow the audience and bedazzle them with shameless entertainment. It has been this way since the days of silent films and movie serials were created.

A few years back AMC had a murder mystery with the evil doctor buried alive. I love mysteries and was really into the story. Then ABC published a magazine announcing in advance who the killer was. Since in a murder mystery the identity of the killer is the be all and end all to the story for me, I didn't bother watching again. I cared who the killer was up until the moment they told me who the killer was. They could have brought the ten best soap writers of all time to start writing from that point, they ruined my enjoyment and I no longer had a reason to watch the mystery.

Here's where GL parts company as a true classic soap in the classic soap mold - Maureen's death was horrible to me, but just as horrible as Leslie's in the 70's. I stopped watching FOR YEARS because they killed off Leslie, and sorry it seemed only a ploy to make Mike a widower and available for future storylines with a bevy of babes. Mike never re-married and never really had true chemistry with another female character, except perhaps for Lezlie Dalton's Elizabeth. I did not stop watching when Maureen died, but the story made me heartsick. Ellen Parker was lauded as the closest thing to Charita Bauer by Michael Zaslow. He KNEW it and suddenly it dawned on me how right he was. Mo was there, she was Mrs. Bauer, made that kitchen set seem like home to all of the other characters. That's a classic soap character and she was mourned. I totally agree with the poster who pointed out that Reva's return and every one of her stupid stories from Amish Reva to Clone Reva to Sentinel Reva led to the true erosion of viewers. The audience dwindled more and more, and the addition of the horrid Laura Wright as Cassie sealed the show's fate for me. My eyes rolled through San Cristobel and I didn't care again until Gina T. come on as a fascinating Dinah.

That underestimates the importance of cliff hangers. Caring is not "I have got to see what happens next!", and sitting at the edge of your seat in anticipation is part of what makes one care. If everyone knew who shot JR in advance, it would not have been the biggest event in serial history, singlehandedly creating the modern idea of a season finale that all shows still cling to 30 years later including sitcoms, and would not have made Dallas such an international sensation.

But when was the last time you saw anything on a soap where not knowing would have made you enjoy the story more? Would Tad burying Madden alive and torturing him have been better if you hadn't known?

Edited September 8, 201114 yr by CarlD2

There is an element of razzle dazzle you need to wow the audience and bedazzle them with shameless entertainment. It has been this way since the days of silent films and movie serials were created.

Even earlier--there's a reason Agnes Nixon is such a fan of Charles Dickens. Dickens' contemporary Wilkie Collins (the Woman in White, etc) actually created the term cliffhanger with a literal one--when these books were collected after being serialized, often the cliffhangers were taken out (though some have been reinstated in some modern editions for historical curiousity). Even very literary authors at the time, like Henry James, who serialized their novels initially used the device, it wasn' beneath them and was seen as essential. I think it was Dickens' Pickwick Papers, but it may have been a different novel, that created riots when a new issue with the story would come around, Victorian readers were so obsessed.

But when was the last time you saw anything on a soap where not knowing would have made you enjoy the story more? Would Tad burying Madden alive and torturing him have been better if you hadn't known?

That was a HORRIBLE moment, but actually in a way it may have made me enjoy it more--at least there would have been a moment of "What?? Well I never guessed that" LOL.

Here's where GL parts company as a true classic soap in the classic soap mold - Maureen's death was horrible to me, but just as horrible as Leslie's in the 70's. I stopped watching FOR YEARS because they killed off Leslie, and sorry it seemed only a ploy to make Mike a widower and available for future storylines with a bevy of babes. Mike never re-married and never really had true chemistry with another female character, except perhaps for Lezlie Dalton's Elizabeth. I did not stop watching when Maureen died, but the story made me heartsick. Ellen Parker was lauded as the closest thing to Charita Bauer by Michael Zaslow. He KNEW it and suddenly it dawned on me how right he was. Mo was there, she was Mrs. Bauer, made that kitchen set seem like home to all of the other characters. That's a classic soap character and she was mourned. I totally agree with the poster who pointed out that Reva's return and every one of her stupid stories from Amish Reva to Clone Reva to Sentinel Reva led to the true erosion of viewers. The audience dwindled more and more, and the addition of the horrid Laura Wright as Cassie sealed the show's fate for me. My eyes rolled through San Cristobel and I didn't care again until Gina T. come on as a fascinating Dinah.

When was Leslie killed off, was it under the Dobsons?

Yes, it was the Dobsons.

ZoeTate if you could talk more in the GL thread I was also wondering what you thought of Barbara Rodell as Leslie, and what you thought of the Stanley Norris stories, murder mystery, etc.

But when was the last time you saw anything on a soap where not knowing would have made you enjoy the story more? Would Tad burying Madden alive and torturing him have been better if you hadn't known?

Absolutely.

I guess I usually don't think spoilers hurt the genre because of my own experience - by 1995 I had become so alienated by what had happened to ATWT and GL that I started reading soap magazines to try to figure out what was going on and if things would get better. Then this was when I learned about so many of my favorites on ATWT being fired, etc. It probably kept me grounded more than just not knowing what had happened.

Carl, you're right on the Katie story. I just brought it up as an example of how "surprising" it would have been. But what did it last all of, a few days? Then Katie was all better, the Bill/Steffy element was dropped... this is why I don't think of Brad Bell as a quality writer.