B&B: Old/Classic Discussion & Articles

[Chris B]

I actually don't find Sally dark in these early episodes. If she were going up against anybody other than Clarke I may see that, but Clarke was such a clown that I found her threatening him to be quite fun. 

[Althea Davis]

I think Sally s character started very nice... and got really really interesting by the 800s... then after 1200... the writers started slowly losing interest. I could feel it... but she is still very important character... but I think the character peaked between 800... and 1200... 

The only character that deeply started to feel off ... even though she is still the queen in charge is Stephanie... after about 1100 episodes... Stephanie started to become more and more one dimensional... the first 1000 episodes... she was really really multifaced... I guess it was Susan Flannerys new age and look that just changed the character... it was normal I guess. But I would have loved if Stephanie had continued in her prime years beautiful woman in charge... ways... she started to become more and more just obsessed with Brooke and acting as a bully... going around and terorizing people all the time... the character started lacking that warmt that it once had... But she continued to be THE BEST.

Character that improved - Taylor! She started little rocky... yeah beautiful... yeah hair... but she annoyed me a lot with how she was leading Storm and Blake on... all while wanting Ridge. It was very strange... since I would call this behaviour very Slut from the valley vibe Brooke... but then it changed... She showed her smart side and just the character has been non stop getting better ever since coming on. And Hunter is acting so good. Nothing compared to the way she did in the later years... she has facial expressions and is so striking.

I LOVED Blaked and wanted him to be even more psycho...

But of course the cherry of the show in character developedment was BROOKE.

How much she changed from 1 to 1700!

From a very innocent like girl... with dreams and looking out the window... to scheming and lying to Caroline... to manipulating Ridge into dating her... to destroying Stephanie's whole life... from a poor caterer's daughter to CEO in charge. Brooke really is the force of the show... Even if she lacks the actor's abilities of Susan Flannery. Brooke is just fun to watch... she hooks you into her story. I would say that the character till now has evolved perfectly... We all know that soon she will go downhill... but the first Brooke 1700 episodes... is just AMAZING. Perfect story arc.

 

[Videnbas]

Interesting takes on character development!

I think Sally took a few months to truly build all her dimensions, but after Macy's introduction and when they started mending their relationship, Sally was complete as a character and the many facets of her character were all there. To me, Sally is one of those characters who have stayed pretty consistent over the years and never truly been "out of character" - being a bit of a "trickster" character and "larger than life", she has a wide range of believable behavior and since she is likely to do almost anything, there isn't really very much she can do that will damage her character, as long as her heart is in the right place. However, whenever Sally falls in love she tends to lose at least 30% of her IQ points. She clearly has a blind spot when it comes to her choice of men.

I think Stephanie, as of year 1993, is still a very complex and strong character, although I do agree that she tended to lose dimensions as time went on. However, I think it became more noticeable from the late 90s on, when her bluntly aggressive side started becoming more prominent than her razor sharp and subtly humorous "chess player" side. I think the haircut scene from 2003, funny as it was, was pretty out of character for Stephanie (although totally in character for Sally), and Stephanie became more of a two-dimensional character after that.

I agree that Taylor improved after the first two years or so. She was pretty frustrating to watch during that whole Storm-Ridge-Blake period when she seemed just unable and unwilling to decide what she really wanted, but after her marriage to Ridge she has really settled into her role as a good wife and a "voice of reason". This, IMO, is Taylor at her best - that is, the Taylor of 1992-1994 and 1998-2002. (I don't recall it very clearly but I seem to remember a temporary return to that initial annoying indecisiveness after her first return from the dead when she just would not reveal herself for months and months and months, and the whole pregnancy storyline where for some reason she couldn't tell Ridge the truth about the child being his because... the universe prevented her from doing so?) Taylor post 2005 is an entirely different character, so I don't really count her as Taylor at all.

Now Brooke I feel has been very consistent from the start - her character development has been very linear from 1987 to 1993. Even in the seemingly innocent girl of 1987 there was this seed of ambition (her fascination with the Forresters and her reluctance to marry Dave). It's worth noting that in Brooke's own personal take on her story, she is always Cinderella and remembers herself as a "caterer's help", when in fact she was not working with her mother at all but rather asked to help out only on that particular evening, as a way to get to see the Forrester mansion from the inside. Brooke taking over FC in 1993 feels like the natural culmination of her character arc (and makes Stephanie's antagonism towards Brooke seem almost prophetic in retrospect). I think Brooke's character started getting derailed with the sudden sharp turn in 1999 when she suddenly developed an extremely passionate attraction to Thorne after having friend zoned him for over a decade. And then of course Breacon was a low point and after that Brooke became sort of a caricature of her former self, constantly jumping from one scandal to the next but without the focus that kept her together for the first decade of the show (especially when her role as a business woman ended).

As for Macy, it seemed like the show originally may have had an entirely different personality in mind for her, and then the writers spent about the first six months turning her character around (unless this character development was always what they intended, as part of the reconciliation with Sally). At the end of that arc, Macy was a very sweet character but almost too "normal" and unproblematic. So the writers tried having her half-heartedly cheat on Thorne with Jake, which really did not ring true, and backtracked again by having her end the affair. I think it was only when the show acknowledged and played up Macy's latent depressive and self-destructive tendencies that the character truly fell into place. Paradoxically, this character was truly in her element when she was balancing on the verge of an abyss. She needed that shadow hanging over her in order to thrive. I think Macy hit her peak around 1992-1995 and 1998-2000 (with the exception of some OOC writing in 2000).

Sheila is an interesting case because she came on the show with an entire backstory that non-Y&R viewers knew nothing about. And then the show introduces us both to the Sheila she was then, and the Sheila she is trying to be now. And there is this enormous tension within the character as she tries to maneuver between her different selves (the one she is trying to be, and the one she is trying to suppress). As long as Sheila has these two sides, she is a very compelling character. And Sheila is probably one of the characters who spends the most screen time thinking - she has her own theme music that plays whenever the wheels are turning in her mind, and she is probably one of the cleverest characters on the show. The problems occur when one of Sheila's two sides goes missing for too long - she needs to be bad, but not ALL bad. IMO Sheila was at her best on B&B between 1992 and 1998.

[Soapfan8]

What would you guys say are 5 of the greatest bold and beautiful storylines?

[Althea Davis]

1. Brooke taking over 1993

2. Sheila marries Eric 

3. Stephanie and the homeless 

4. Caroline dying

5. Brooke and Thorne - Stephanie wants to kill Brooke

[sheilaforever]

I couldn't help but start laughing when I read that one of the "traits" you associated with Taylor in the early was her HUUUUUGE hair. It's true, though. LOL
 

I'd say Taylor from 1992-1996 was the ultimate soap heroine. She is never doing bad stuff, but she ain't a saint, either. She has flaws, she has insecurities, she has sex appeal, she is driven, she has a moral compass.  And Hunter Tylo was truly BEAUTIFUL back then.

 

Thanks for the other detailed character assessments @divinemotionand @VidenbasThat was an interesting read!

 

 

He's one the few early guest stars which unfortunately remained uncredited in the early days of B&B... He looks very 80s/Clayton Norcross which of her is not - I've no idea who he could be.... SOrry!

Still watching - and enjoying it a lot. Right now at episode # 1557.

I recently saw the episode in which Thorne and Macy wanted to meet at the Ocean Club to sort out their feelings. After talking to Sly, Macy's insecruities got the best of her (and Sly was quasi pushing in order to protect his agenda!) and she drank and fell asleep. Meanwhile, Thorne is anxiously to finally reunite with Macy which does not happen. I TOTALLY remembered this episode from decades ago when I first saw it (I was just lurking in and out of B&B with my mom  back then).

 

Next stop is Karen calling it quits with Thorne which made oh-so-much-sense and was overdue. In today's soap climate, Thorne would have slept with Karen who would then end up pregnant after already having had a one-nigth stand with someone else on the canvas, I guess.

 

I also really liked Macy's first real meeting with Keith's (mentally challenged) brother Kevin. It really brought back some depth to the Macy character to balance out her drunken sailor days.

The Spectra stuff is getting the short-end of the stick because there is so much going on that just cannot fit into a 30 minute show. It seems like Bill&Darla are over (even though it has not been adressed), Sally&Jack get some moments but not a lot, Karen's role as business woman is non-existent, the fate of the company not really adressed.

 

Sheila has surprisingly also found a spot in the backburner after marrying Eric. The Houdini House was introduced, but she is not seen that often which is interesting. The BIG story is of course the battle for BeLieF. That Steve Crown dude is getting lots of mileage as a recurring player: singing at Bikini Bar, donning massages to Brooke and Karen, getting to kiss Brooke - all in addition to being a never before seen lawyer of thhe Forresters. Ridge and Stephanie lay it on so thick with Brooke and Connor that even a blind-person could see the red traffic lights. It's really delicious to watch! I can't wait for KKL and SF to swing their slapping hands - the big climax is coming up shortly, I guess. I'm beyond ready for it!

Edited July 4, 2022 by sheilaforever

[Videnbas]

I also remember that failed reconciliation of Thorne and Macy from when I was watching with my mom! I remembered Sly as a much more clear-cut villain than what I see now, which is really a complex guy who does love Macy - just not enough to realize that his relationship with her is destructive and he needs to let her go. This time around, I have really enjoyed watching the Sly/Macy codependency dynamic.

And my opinion of Karen went way up when she found some self-respect and ended things with Thorne. It was so refreshing to see a relationship end because it simply MADE SENSE for it to end, not because of some silly triangle.

Bill and Darla seem to have fallen into a plot hole. I wonder if their fate as a couple will ever be addressed. Their relationship was fun while it lasted.

Speaking of Kevin, I LOVE him! I think he is just so adorable and he really has a wonderfully sweet dynamic with both Macy and Keith. The show did a pretty bold choice hiring a mentally disabled actor to portray him and I think it really works. I like that they are adding some more layers to Macy's alcoholism by showing her doing and caring about other things besides getting drunk (as well as actually acting quasi sober at times). At first I felt that whole drinking storyline was a bit underdeveloped (as you say, the Spectra side tended to get the short end of the stick), but the longer it goes on, the better it gets IMO - it seems that after keeping it on the backburner for months, the writers start getting more invested in this storyline around #1580 and it shows.

(On a side note - I have to admit I enjoyed Macy's first drunken binge immensely because the scene where Keith brought her home and put her to bed was SO MUCH like when my four year old stays up past her bedtime and gets overtired!)

Of course the BeLieF thing is the big frontburner storyline. It was probably the most seismic shift in the show that had happened up until that point, so of course it deserves a lot of air time (although I admit I feel some of the scenes were not, strictly speaking, necessary). And during that time, Sheila is surprisingly normal and well-adjusted (although she is kind of doing a "double agent" thing where she tries to be friends with both sides hoping to gain advantages for herself) because she is reasonably safe. Which is why I CHEERED watching a certain character showing up in episode 1634 today! I can't wait for the epic scene coming up in a few episodes!

Edited July 4, 2022 by Videnbas

[BoldKara]

Thank you anyway! I'm positive the guy ended up in bigger roles. His face is incredibly familiar but I just can't place him.

[Althea Davis]

Ive been rewatching some of the episodes because of my partner... and I really want to say that JAKE nearly killed the show... For a show with 1000 episodes of consistency... now all of a sudden MACY wants to sleep with HIM... After meeting him 1 time... After us watching her Romeo and Juliet romance with Thorne... so out of character for Macy... SO RUSHED and so unnatural.... and then this beautiful rich girl Felicia cries all day for this... I'm sorry... boring guy... that continues for 1 year to live in a garage... NOT REALISTIC. And then the forced... decision that ONE DAY Jake just decided he doesn't want to be a tennis coach anymore and Well.. HE WANTS to work at Forrester. Jake has been the biggest FAIL of the Bill Bell era and everything connected to him was unrealistic and forced. My opinion.

[Videnbas]

I liked Jake's sexual abuse storyline, but his romantic storylines after his "recovery" were kind of not really working. (Then again, maybe that was the whole point.)

The whole premise that Felicia selflessly encouraged Jake to dump her so he could go experiment with other women because he was so inexperienced was just... sexist in a way. Would a man encourage his girlfriend to dump him and go try out other men before deciding he was the one? Would it be seen as problematic that a woman lacked sexual experience when entering into a serious relationship? I just have to compare Jake's situation to Caroline's. For both of them, their first sexual experience was non-consensual and abusive. But for Jake, the "cure" was to date many women, whereas for Caroline, the "cure" was rushing into a marriage.

And I agree that for Macy to suddenly fall head over heels in love with Jake and sleep with him after knowing him for an hour was TOTALLY out of character for her. She was all about Thorne and it was just so unlike her to cheat on him. That affair never made any sense - why in the world would she even consider leaving her husband, whom she was actually deeply in love with, for this guy she barely knew? It was almost as if her main motivation for having the affair was some kind of misguided sympathy for Jake, or the need to feel needed, or believing she alone could "fix" his problems, or being afraid to say no because it might hurt his feelings, or something. And then in the end she realized she really only liked him as a friend. Macy is one of my favorite characters but her storyline for the second half of 1991 is kind of uncomfortable to watch because she is just not acting like herself.

[Pedro]

I will NEVER in my life agree that Jake almost killed the show. He had a very realistic problem in his life unlike most of the characters LOL

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 I heard that some British operas are about more realism, some tragic stories, whereas American are all about  daydreaming Kind of problems, which are not really the problems, they are exaggerated and unrealistic for the most part. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Pedro

[Althea Davis]

Mmm well his abuse story was bearable... with horrific acting by Tippi...  but it was too long and by the end I was bored with it...It was the same conversation with Jake with Donna or Felicia or Taylor for like 150 episodes... Like... really unbearable Bradley type of repeating... And the whole Jake character was badly written... nothing compared to the older characters or some new ones... It really showed when they changed his character couple of times... Let me repeat that moment when he ALL OF A SUDDEN stopped being tennis pro for working at Forrester... NOT REALISTIC. Bad writing. Sorry. I think the show really was amazing these years... but when it comes to Jake... it just fails. For me.

[Soapfan8]

Do you all think KKL or Hunter Tylo was a stronger actress back in the day?

[Althea Davis]

KKL was better at emotion always... and crying a LOT. But she lacked the intelligence and class that Hunter gave Taylor.. She on the other hand... lacked emotion at some points.. and for the first couple of months she couldnt cry like she started later... I will say they are equally good, but no GREAT GREAT like Susan... But in the end I will kinda prefer KKL... because she made me feel more emotion. Taylor a lot of the times is just beautiful. 

[Videnbas]

I would say KKL was somewhat better and had more range and emotion. Hunter was good in therapist mode but fairly unconvincing whenever she had to get emotional. Sadly I think both of them regressed acting-wise in later years (possibly as a result of the direction and/or writing).

But neither of them would even make my top 5 list of the best actresses on B&B. Possibly not even my top 10 list.