15 hours ago, titan1978 said:

You have made a lot of us very happy these last couple of days. It’s wonderful to see so much history that many of us have only read about. Performances and characters that we all know but many did not have the context of seeing their work and how that formed the characters. I never thought I would see so much of Pinkerton’s Dorian. Thanks for sharing!

You're very welcome!

20 hours ago, EricMontreal22 said:

I joined Rumble and found you!  Thank you, looking forward to checking the videos out, and certainly looking forward to revisiting this episode of Tomorrow.

James Lipton is a joke.  My number 1 love and where my work focus has been is on Broadway musicals (I teach a Sondheim history course) and James Lipton has infamously had several disastrous attempts at Broadway musicals.  Like much of his soap writing, I think the man was a hack who was never very good at anything he attempted to do (obviously I never saw his acting on GL so maybe he actually could act).  Certainly, he earned his name as a soap killer IMHO.  What he WAS good at was self promotion and making people think he knew his stuff--an image that he polished with the creation of Inside the Actors' Studio where he seemed like an authority just because he was talking to so many greats.

BUT my idea about how Bell and Nixon both took separate aspects of the Irna soap and then took off from there goes to just what you were saying actually how Bell saved Irna's (well as co-creator) Days and Nixon saved Another World.  I think even if you look at HOW Nixon "fixed" AW and how Bell "fixed" DAYS you can see the start of how they were going off in two different directions.

I love the bit in Wakefield's All Her Children where Dan is having dinner at Nixon's home and he talks about how her daughter brings up a new soap that is also targeting a youth viewership (obviously Young and the Restless) and the daughter says there's one storyline on it (something to do with a gun?  I can't remember) that is ripping off a story her mom has written for AMC (I think, it may have been OLTL).  And Agnes Nixon is quoted as replying she knows the writer of that show and thinks he is extremely good, and that it isn't a rip off because he will have his own stylistic take on a similar idea.

James Lipton did a very good job writing for The Best of Everything.  It had the worst time slot for a new soap, noon.  Most stations had local news on at noon.

1 hour ago, GymnastGuy said:

James Lipton did a very good job writing for The Best of Everything.  It had the worst time slot for a new soap, noon.  Most stations had local news on at noon.

He also did very good work as a dialogue writer for THE DOCTORS, although that's not the same thing as HW'ing.

3 hours ago, GymnastGuy said:

You're very welcome!

James Lipton did a very good job writing for The Best of Everything.  It had the worst time slot for a new soap, noon.  Most stations had local news on at noon.

As a big fan of The Best of Everything the novel and movie, I always wished some of that survived.

I admit, I never got why noon was an issue.  West coast All my Children aired at noon and growing up I knew so many people who would watch it on their lunch breaks--which is how I discovered it because I went home from school for lunch.

19 hours ago, All My Shadows said:

I don’t want to hijack this thread bc right now, the OLTL, GL, and ATWT threads can all easily slide into becoming general classic soap discussion (maybe we need a thread for general talk?), but yes yes yes, welcome back, @EricMontreal22! Your presence makes it feel like the SON of old around here.

Re: the stylistic differences between ATWT/GL and other soaps of the time. Have any of yall read Her Stories? It’s a pretty good soap history book that came out a few years back. There’s a lot of fresh insight into the various soap “brands,” and ATWT and GL hit the traditional/old-fashioned grand slam of being P&G soaps that originated out of NYC, aired on CBS, and were created by Irna. As much as we associate the organ with vintage soap opera, only P&G and/or CBS soaps were still using it by the mid-60s. I would bet that even those one-year wonder NBC soaps in the 50s didn’t use it. None of the California soaps ever did (except for probably the last few months of The Brighter Day, which was produced in CA). Even Love is a Many Splendored Thing began with orchestral music before going to the organ as a cost-cutting measure.

Her Stories is a great book, and its author Elana Levine was a lot of help when I was doing my MA.

And you're right to point out that even back then they were distinctive brands.  I remember back when there was the WOST site, people laughed that the creator refused to call LA filmed soaps, well, soaps...  But I kinda get it.

I will add that I just found it really illuminating to see those early 70s P&G soaps.  When I read all the articles about AMC and OLTL taking off on college campuses, I honestly wondered if the college people were deluding themselves--all the talk about how "these shows aren't remotely the same as my mother's shows"--but in a way I get it.  If you were just flipping channels some afternoon they would come across differently.

On 1/31/2025 at 10:06 PM, All My Shadows said:

As much as we associate the organ with vintage soap opera, only P&G and/or CBS soaps were still using it by the mid-60s. 

I thought GH used it up to the early/mid '70s.

3 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I thought GH used it up to the early/mid '70s.

You’re right. I’ve seen so little of GH’s early years (and in general, honestly), and I just associate it with the rather grandiose piano scores I’ve heard in the few episodes I’ve watched. I haven’t cracked all the way into the recent 66-68 postings yet, but I hear organ in them - though in a much different style from the P&G way.

OLTL. So, I watched all of Mitch’s episodes today, and though all of the episodes focused heavily on Dorian and Matt, I don’t think I could ever tire of watching those two. They’re exactly what RC thought he was doing with Dorian and David, except there’s actual depth here. I remember when Dorian was totally camped out circa 2008-2010, and there were people who were unimpressed with the writing and Robin’s portrayal because they remembered Pinkerton, and now, I see it. I totally see it. You’re always left wondering how the wheels are turning in NP Dorian’s head. She’s like a simmering pot that you know will boil over, but when? Will she remain cool, calm, and collected, or will she finally snap?

8 minutes ago, All My Shadows said:

You’re right. I’ve seen so little of GH’s early years (and in general, honestly), and I just associate it with the rather grandiose piano scores I’ve heard in the few episodes I’ve watched. I haven’t cracked all the way into the recent 66-68 postings yet, but I hear organ in them - though in a much different style from the P&G way.

OLTL. So, I watched all of Mitch’s episodes today, and though all of the episodes focused heavily on Dorian and Matt, I don’t think I could ever tire of watching those two. They’re exactly what RC thought he was doing with Dorian and David, except there’s actual depth here. I remember when Dorian was totally camped out circa 2008-2010, and there were people who were unimpressed with the writing and Robin’s portrayal because they remembered Pinkerton, and now, I see it. I totally see it. You’re always left wondering how the wheels are turning in NP Dorian’s head. She’s like a simmering pot that you know will boil over, but when? Will she remain cool, calm, and collected, or will she finally snap?

According to Schemering's book, GH's organ music was inventive and fun, which is one of the reasons it held on so long.

I thought of Dorian and David too. They are what Dorian and David were around 1995. Later on they either made David too good or they made him too comedic to the point of being brain dead. I often wanted to see someone kick him in the ass in his later appearances. The only value he brought was showing just how much Ford struggled to rock a Speedo.

I know Robin became so OTT out of job security (or that's one of the big theories), but it's still sad to think of what Dorian became. And we should never see her under the table servicing someone. By that point the character had lost so much of herself. 

If OLTL had gone on I wish they could have taken away all the trappings, like the mansion and the whole "Cramer women" crutch, and maybe we could have seen those flashes of Pinkerton again.

Edited February 2Feb 2 by DRW50

It was Malone II who made Dorian and David a major thing and solidified them, and early on it was fairly earnest and I thought it really worked. I still like or liked them together, and I think Tuc always showed up. I did get very tired of the Cramer Women/La Boulaie slogans, but I don't mind the house or the overall trappings if the various slogans are quieted down (similar to the Quartermaines on GH when they cut back on the it's-my-house gag or the pizza or Tracy-bashing).

It doesn't help that Robin was often playing for the rafters, but I don't think she ever lost Dorian or who she was so much as she lost her willingness to modulate (and the writing didn't help). I do think seeing Nancy Pinkerton, finally, gives us a look at the earliest core and allows us to find Dorian unpredictable again, partly by way of novelty. It is a spellbinding performance, as I said a few posts back. But I wouldn't count Robin out with the right material and direction, or even a little.

Edited February 2Feb 2 by Vee

32 minutes ago, Vee said:

It was Malone II who made Dorian and David a major thing and solidified them, and early on it was fairly earnest and I thought it really worked. I still like or liked them together, and I think Tuc always showed up. I did get very tired of the Cramer Women/La Boulaie slogans, but I don't mind the house or the overall trappings if the various slogans are quieted down (similar to the Quartermaines on GH when they cut back on the it's-my-house gag or the pizza or Tracy-bashing).

It doesn't help that Robin was often playing for the rafters, but I don't think she ever lost Dorian or who she was so much as she lost her willingness to modulate (and the writing didn't help). I do think seeing Nancy Pinkerton, finally, gives us a look at the earliest core and allows us to find Dorian unpredictable again, partly by way of novelty. It is a spellbinding performance, as I said a few posts back. But I wouldn't count Robin out with the right material and direction, or even a little.

I think there were some decent moments with Dorian and David in the show's last decade, I just think the whole "we see each other" type of relationship they had in 1995 was compelling and true to both characters. In these '76-'77 episodes that aspect of Matt and Dorian also interests me the most, more than when they push too much of his sexual or romantic desire for her.

I definitely don't want to take a lot of shots at Robin just based on some old episodes from 50 years ago. I know she had a great deal of trauma in the part, whereas Nancy was only there for part a decade and never returned. I suppose it's just, as you said, we were all talked out about Dorian after what was done with her in the show's later years, and now suddenly we are reminded of what could have been.

I didn't mind the mansion either, I just think taking everything might have led to a fresh approach with the character and given Robin a new set of cards.

Edited February 2Feb 2 by DRW50

13 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

I think there were some decent moments with Dorian and David in the show's last decade, I just think the whole "we see each other" type of relationship they had in 1995 was compelling and true to both characters. In these '76-'77 episodes that aspect of Matt and Dorian also interests me the most, more than when they push too much of his sexual or romantic desire for her.

I definitely don't want to take a lot of shots at Robin just based on some old episodes from 50 years ago. I know she had a great deal of trauma in the part, whereas Nancy was only there for part a decade and never returned. I suppose it's just, as you said, we were all talked out about Dorian after what was done with her in the show's later years, and now suddenly we are reminded of what could have been.

I didn't mind the mansion either, I just think taking everything might have led to a fresh approach with the character and given Robin a new set of cards.

I can definitely see the appeal of taking it all away (the house, etc). It's happened for Dorian before.

I do agree about early D&D. I do think David could still work scheming in a more serious vein again (with humor or even buffoonery sometimes still). Tuc is certainly still very skilled and I have my doubts he would turn up his nose at doing the soaps from time to time even now - he seems very fond of them. Unfortunately GH fans would rightly riot over more of those crossovers and there's no place for OLTL atm.

And yes, I think an alternate history where Pinkerton had remained is fascinating. The key moment for me that's particularly striking is when she wakes from the dream about Joe (and Matt) crying "I will get what I want!" And you get the sense she has no idea what that is. I would love to see her Dorian with Melinda, or the earlier stuff at the hospital (Mark Toland, etc).

Edited February 2Feb 2 by Vee

@EricMontreal22 It was actually the late Danfling's message board where the creator refused to acknowledge California shows as soaps, not WOST. I still miss WOST. It was such a special place.

Just noting the various mentions of organ music, if it interests you & you aren't already following it, I would recommend Lance Jackson to you. His YT channel is

 https://www.youtube.com/@LanceJacksonOrgnplyr

You won't be sorry.

Not sure if this was posted already But this YouTube channel has a treasure trove of episodes including a OLTL from 1975 with Victor Lord alive slayed by Shepard Strudwick. Some of the previous '70s episodes of One Life to Live that were posted a few years back featured a distinct lack of Vicki, But she's in some of these! 

I still hold out hope that clips of Victor Lord's death storyline will surface.

 

 

 

Edited February 3Feb 3 by Planet Soap

Yes, we're well aware. 😀