^ I miss the da da da!

I disagree here, Dixie got a lot of crap when she returned back in 06'. It was just starting to get better by the time Dixie died in 07' but I generally do think she paid for her mistakes in terms of having people pissed off at her for staying away for so long. I also can't blame her for JR ending up the way he did. I honestly think JR was just messed up from the start. He was always a written to be a character who couldn't cope with hardships and had very little resilience in the face of adversity and I don't think that can really be blamed on Dixie. JR had a relatively good childhood all things considered. He wasn't abused, mistreated, neglected or in anyway treated badly as a young child. So I can't blame Dixie for JR's problems once JR went into adulthood. I don't think you could even blame Tad for that matter he was so rarely around until JR's teen years. For example look at how Jaime is and compare it to how JR ended up. Night and day, even though they both had the same parents.

It's totally not fair to compare Jamie and JR. Jamie's mother didn't run off to another country to cope with a pregnancy her husband wasn't all that supportive of and then give up his sister and pretend to be dead for four years. The father-figure in Jamie's life also didn't conspire with Jamie's own brother and wife to conceal the news that his son was really alive either. Dixie, Tad, and Jamie all massively screwed with JR's life, but they don't get any blame for it. Yes, JR was always destructive, and yes, he probably would have found any myriad of reasons to end up the way he did, but his mother, his stepfather and his stepbrother all hurt him tremendously.

"Kendall and I already did it."

"You think you can shock me..."

Fabulous, lol.

I think the scenes right after that the kiss are also on YT. Kendall finally comes clean with Erica about the planned surrogacy, and Erica tries to talk her out of it, saying that it would be really hard to go through the whole pregnancy and then give birth and have to give the baby up - how will Kendall not fall in love with that sweet, innocent little baby? Kendall looks Erica right in the face and says something like, "well, you didn't fall in love with me, mother."

That was an awesome scene, very rich. From Erica's description to Kendall face while she's describing it, to Kendall's brutally honest observation (which she didn't say to hurt her), to Erica looking like she'd been punched in the gut.

It's near the end of this clip:

It's totally not fair to compare Jamie and JR. Jamie's mother didn't run off to another country to cope with a pregnancy her husband wasn't all that supportive of and then give up his sister and pretend to be dead for four years. The father-figure in Jamie's life also didn't conspire with Jamie's own brother and wife to conceal the news that his son was really alive either. Dixie, Tad, and Jamie all massively screwed with JR's life, but they don't get any blame for it. Yes, JR was always destructive, and yes, he probably would have found any myriad of reasons to end up the way he did, but his mother, his stepfather and his stepbrother all hurt him tremendously.

ICAM.

Everybody has to own the person they become but the people around us do contribute in part to who we each become. JR had a lot of big contributors. JR had a really f'ed up bunch around him from the start. Custody battles when he was a kid, Tad's death, Dixie's three deaths, parents cheating left and right, expectations he would never be able to live up to from his father, Dixe's betrayal (the Kate "death"), Tad and Jamie's betrayals (the baby) and later Babe's.

It's totally not fair to compare Jamie and JR. Jamie's mother didn't run off to another country to cope with a pregnancy her husband wasn't all that supportive of and then give up his sister and pretend to be dead for four years. The father-figure in Jamie's life also didn't conspire with Jamie's own brother and wife to conceal the news that his son was really alive either. Dixie, Tad, and Jamie all massively screwed with JR's life, but they don't get any blame for it. Yes, JR was always destructive, and yes, he probably would have found any myriad of reasons to end up the way he did, but his mother, his stepfather and his stepbrother all hurt him tremendously.

I'll admit my bias against the JR character just to have the discussion above board. I truly have a problem blaming anyone for his behavior from 2004 onward because there were so many times JR should have stopped himself and realized he was going on the wrong path. There were so many ignored epiphanies on his part in the last seven years of his character development that I find it extremely hard to find him in anyway to be a sympathetic character. The reason why I say I personally don't blame Dixie for the way he turned out is because she was largely considered to be the perfect model mother in all ways. JR had the best parental relationships growing up with Tad and Dixie when they showed them as a family unit. Dixie was always his primary care giver and there was no sense that she was a poor parent or a poor provider to him in anyway, so from childhood to late adulthood JR had a perfectly stable upbringing. Things only got "rocky" during his high school period and by that point Dixie had already "died".

At the end of the day Dixie's health was in jeopardy, I would imagine JR would be at the age where he would understand that his mother was sick (she already had a failing heart which was why she needed David to treat her in general) and that she needed better care in another country. I don't believe JR at that age (17-19) wouldn't understand why Dixie left to seek better health care. As far as Dixie's death being a reason for his decline I would give him leeway in that and agree that most certainly should have an effect on him. That most certainly could have aggravated his ill habits and behaviors with drugs and liquor at an impressionable age. The fact that Adam and Tad didn't discipline him better during that period is egregious. But how long are we going to excuse his behavior with this excuse? JR was far beyond the pale before he was told Dixie faked her death back in 06'. JR had already drugged, framed, hired hitmen, gaslighted, blackmailed and nearly killed six or so people by that point in his character history. I say this because I really don't think JR's depravity in 2004 is appreciated fully. I always hear how JR was "betrayed" by the Martins, yet I almost never hear about all the things JR did before which caused them to turn their backs to him. Why would anyone, let alone Tad condone the kinds of behavior JR exemplified in the above sentences? Why would Tad or Jaime for that matter support someone who did all of the mentioned above things to them, their friends and other innocent people?

JR was certainly no angel through out 2004 and 2005 and this was prior to Dixie's secret. I imagine once JR nearly killed Jaime and had him framed and jailed for something he didn't do Tad would wash his hands of him. I can't imagine why Tad would have this unyielding loyalty to JR after JR caused actions to nearly have two or three people killed. Especially when JR was dead wrong in doing the things he did and he and everyone else knew it.

JR is the one to blame for his own actions and he is to blame for the people in his life turning his back on him. Why? Because JR purposely did evil, hurtful, malicious things to his own family and to people he said he loved before those people ever turned their backs on him. The truth of the matter is JR screwed with Jaime first, and then expected like the spoiled brat he was for Tad to be on his side, even when JR was wrong. The fact that Jaime and Tad hurt JR is superseded by the fact that he hurt them all first.

Custody battles when he was a kid, Tad's death, Dixie's three deaths, parents cheating left and right, expectations he would never be able to live up to from his father, Dixe's betrayal (the Kate "death"), Tad and Jamie's betrayals (the baby) and later Babe's.

I just don't agree. JR's early life if nothing else was relatively peaceful. JR was an infant during the time of his custody battles and through most of the horrors Adam inflicted on Dixie, he was a toddler when Tad died. So he wouldn't remember any of those bad times. Most of the time he grew up under Dixie's care and he had a good life in Pigeon Hollow from what we know. Adam didn't start becoming more involved in JR's life until much later late 90's in the earliest as Adam was obsessed with Liza by that point in show history. But even still his primary influences were of Tad and Dixie with Adam popping in every now and then when he felt his legacy was being threatened by a Martin.

The first true rough spot JR truly experienced was as a teenager when Dixie found out Tad had cheated on her and then Dixie cheating on Tad with David. That was also the first time JR actively started acting out with drugs, attacking David and him going to Adam to bail him out of trouble consistently. JR was more or less considered a capable adult by that point.

JR's downward spiral never had any catalyst to me and that's largely why I find him so unsympathetic. He's just a loser for no reason. When all logic tells us that he should at least be a functioning human being yet he became a sociopath who had no compassion for other humans. All the other things JR went through Babe's infedilities, Jaime and Tad's "betrayals" and Dixie's lies happened when he was an adult who should be capable of handling these things in the manner in which an adult would. Not shooting people, drugging people, framing them for your own crimes and trying to kill them. The show would have done a better job if they went the Jonathan route with him and given him some kind of mental illness that caused him to react this way. As it stands the character simply made no sense. His character overhaul from being Dixie's boy to Adam's son never translated well with me at all.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Skin

LMAO - look what happens to Phoebe at the end of this clip:

(it starts @ about 7:45)

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Pine Charles

OMG! Phoebe! I miss this show so damn much! Bring it back!

Phoebe humiliated... and on camera! She's hilarious.

I miss this show so damn much!

Me too!

I thought her wig was gonna get snatched. Look at her face though, RW was an attractive lady.

She definitely was.

Edited January 28, 201213 yr by Pine Charles

Wow, a lot of bad acting in that episode - I swear Bennett was better in other episodes. Or maybe I just didn't care at the time.

That whole drama over the fire is hollow...I'd forgotten how far Alicia Mishnew came. The same with Sam Page. I was hoping Chris wouldn't wake up.

Ugh Hayley was so strident and shrill by this time.

Nice to see Anna/David again.

I always liked Liz Hendrickson as Maggie, which is odd, as I have rarely liked her on Y&R.

I think Bennett in general was ok, but overated. I found it funny that in a recent SOW interview he seemed so dismissive of soaps in general and his time on them.

Chris was always an awful idea--I used to blame it on the actor, but I think everything about the character was ill conceived (I can't even remember if they explained his relation to Ryan or retconned that).

Liz H seems to be yet another actor who Y&R has ruined... She did have a lot of charisma on the show, even with the heavy handed abuse storyline. I wonder if they ever tried to get her back to play out Bianca's story with Zack under Pratt--it would have made far more sense (as awful as the plot point was) that she would make out with a man, due to her past, than a random new character.

Chris was always an awful idea--I used to blame it on the actor, but I think everything about the character was ill conceived (I can't even remember if they explained his relation to Ryan or retconned that).

Liz H seems to be yet another actor who Y&R has ruined... She did have a lot of charisma on the show, even with the heavy handed abuse storyline. I wonder if they ever tried to get her back to play out Bianca's story with Zack under Pratt--it would have made far more sense (as awful as the plot point was) that she would make out with a man, due to her past, than a random new character.

I actually liked Ryan's retcon, a lot just because it put a kabosh on the whole Lavery's were born evil thing and lightened up Ryan as a character. Ryan was always at his best when he was a romantic lead or a supporting dramatic player. I hated it when Megan brought that back for the sole purpose of giving Ryan siblings that never existed before. To add further insult to injury they gave him that good awful domestic abuse storyline that pretty much ruined his character.

I never thought LH had a lot of charisma. She always seemed very subdued and boderline bored with her material. She had nice lady chemistry with Eden's Bianca, but I never thought Maggie had legs as a character which is why bigger character personalities always overwhelmed her in stories. The whole domestic abuse with Jonathan story dragged in part because she was a weaker dramatic player. I personally think she has more of a personality on Y&R as the scheming Chole then she ever did as Bianca's sometime lover on AMC. As to if they ever tried to get Maggie to comeback, I doubt it. Pratt was only thinking about getting his favorites to work on the show and if that meant destroying Bianca's character to get there then he did it.

The first true rough spot JR truly experienced was as a teenager when Dixie found out Tad had cheated on her and then Dixie cheating on Tad with David. That was also the first time JR actively started acting out with drugs, attacking David and him going to Adam to bail him out of trouble consistently. JR was more or less considered a capable adult by that point.

As a kid, JR dealt with his mother marrying Craig and then that marriage ending, Tad coming back from the dead, his mother chasing Tad, Tad cheating with Liza (JR witnessed them kissing). I realize it was nothing compared to what he dealt with as a teenager/young adult, but his childhood wasn't exactly idyllic either.