October 18-22, 2010

[Saving ATWT]

I was speaking about the sale of The Talk in international markets much like Oprah, Dr. Phil and The View. I remember being shocked to learn that Oprah has a huge following in Japan and that the episodes are mostly current.

You talk about 'when you were a kid' watching repeats of Golden Girls (NBC) and Full House (ABC) in the morning; however, these shows were not network scheduled but, instead, were in syndication and bought by local channels much in the way these stations air Judge Joe Brown now. As a kid, you probably had no way of knowing this. Today, hit primetime shows are too expensive for a local affiliates to buy for AM low viewership because they've been sucked up by large cable networks like USA, TBS, and TNT. The Times article questioned whether CBS would spare Medium due to the 1.4 million paid by Lifetime but also said the network had to many hits and that even a modest winner like 'The Defenders' would need to go for a few strong mid-season replacements such as the Criminal Minds spinoff. Medium lost a few ratings points this season (would be a hit by ABC standards) but CBS can make new deals around other shows with different cable networks. My point wasn't so much pertaining to Medium as it was CBS efforts at being a main distributor of content as well as a network and how this relates to shows like ATWT or Y&R. CBS is legally the old Viacom and seems to be following a similiar plan in that selling content is almost a bigger business than the actual network. Mooves talked about how CSI would eventually garner Billions and still be earning money for the company decades from now just like I Love Lucy does. How could ATWT compete with that? The only reason LMAD stays on air is because CSI or NCIS can make more cash on cable than as part of the CBS daytime lineup.

Were you watching Golden Girls and Full House on the same channel? They both came from different networks and no major network used repeats as part of the AM line up in the 1990's. I'm pretty sure that all ended in the late 1970's or early 1980's. A network makes no money off local time unless they produce the show but that is a very different issue--Oprah is CBS/Para produced but can air on any channel. This is why I've said the Bell's would be smart to sell NOW. CBS would do a deal with Sony and then either keep the show set as is or get it ready for syndicated run and let viewers channel hop. CBS needs a strong Daytime lead in but would probably rather nit share the time slot with a production partner.

[Saving ATWT]

Totally and CBS has a lot of hits and can easily set up another 1.4 million dollar deal with another show for a different cable network. My main point out of all of this is that shows like ATWT, B&B and Y&R hold no real value for CBS. Network shows will be owned by networks and the next Bill Bell will not have the same sort of freedom when it comes to developing a show. LOL--it will be like Santa Barbara with Bridget and Jerome Dobson v's NBC over and over again. The role of the Network in the Digital Age has shifted away from simply being a platform for content and into s platform/aggregater of content on a massive scale and that, even more than ratings, is what killed GL and ATWT and will soon doom other CBS soaps. In primetime, Criminal Minds, much less a spin off, was dead until ABC Studios caved on US rights, so why would the PGP or Bell shows be spared? CBS could have demanded major improvement for ATWT if they had really wished to save the show. Other networks have yet to make this leap but this is in large part due to the size of parent companies. Maybe Y&R and B&B will end up on NBC or even The CW; however, I doubt this will happen and think only B&B, due to international sales, has a possible cable or syndicated future.

[jpoliver78]

Pardon me, but you are dead wrong on this topic. NBC aired morning re-runs of "The Golden Girls" while new episodes were still in production (1989-90). NBC, yes NBC, actually aired morning re-runs of "Full House" in the summer of 1991.

For the record, CBS ended the practice of daytime re-runs when it stopped airing "Designing Women" re-runs in 1992. ABC, meanwhile, aired re-runs of "Who's the Boss?" (1987-1988), "Growing Pains" (1988-89), and "Perfect Strangers" (1989-90) among others. Keep in mind that broadcast affiliates do not have to air daytime programming the same way they do primetime programming, so not all affiliates may have aired these.

You can look at prior daytime line-ups on Wikipedia, or if you don't trust that source, "The Complete Guide to Prime-time Network and Cable TV Shows" (by Tim Brooks and Earle Marsh) also confirm that "Golden Girls" and "Full House" had daytime re-run airings on NBC.

[Soapsuds]

I'd love to see AMC bump OLTL down to dead last. They are so close.....The ratings are horrible...even GH received some 1.6's...yikes.......The Talk ratings are laughable....but of course its making money and cheap....that's what you expect from CBS daytime now.

[jpoliver78]

Not to get off topic, but the reason that broadcast networks have moved toward producing series in-house - aside from the financial aspect - is that until the FCC changed the rules, network's were prohibited from doing so.

If the FCC gets concerned about the growing propensity of the network's to produce series in-house (and even favor in-house products over those from outside studios/producers), then the rules could be changed again. I don't think the FCC would out-right ban in-house productions (the genie is already out of the bottle on that one), but it could impose restrictions, such as network's can only have a certain percentage of their total airtime occupied by in-house productions.

[Saving ATWT]

Went to Wikipedia and all I found about Golden Girls was "In 1990, American syndicated reruns began airing, distributed by Buena Vista Television (now Disney-ABC Domestic Television), the syndication arm of Disney, whose Touchstone Pictures division produced the series." These episodes may have aired on NBC-owned affiliates but there is no mention of Golden Girls being part of the national NBC Daytime line up. Also, I don't quite understand how NBC would have gained national rights for an ABC show, Full House, outside of a syndication deal with affiliates. As an example, NBC4 in NYC is network-owned but airs various programming from other networks; however, rights to shows are bid on from market to market and not a national thing. In terms of CBS, I don't know where the network would have even found space for any show because they already had a full line up and indie locals have tradionally been given two non-network scheduled hours in which to make money. You are aware that affilates get time back, right, and that there is no real national 24 hour schedule? (Two hours in the morning; 3-6:30pm; 7-8pm) The network would only provide programming during these times if for some odd reason an affilate had nothing to show and, thus, had to go off line for an hour. There may have been a network 'reserve' of shows but by the mid 1980's syndicated talk shows were everywhere and filling most of the empty spots--I loved Rolanda which only made it a few seasons. With that said, a local can move certain shows like soaps/gameshows/evening news into varing timeslots.

Also check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBC_Daytime for a complete list of all shows aired as part of NBC Daytime. I'm guessing that your local channel bid on and won rights to air Golden Girl/Full House repeats. Only other thing I can think of is that NBC used them as filler before the debut of a new show but even that makes little sense.

Also see http://wapedia.mobi/en/CBS_Daytime for the entire CBS line up and it makes no mention of the shows you mentioned. Again, these were probably syndicated repeats bought by your local CBS station.

[MontyB]

I can't speak for GG or FH, but other poster is right about the networks running repeats of primetime shows on daytime. I know for a fact One Day At A Time was on CBS's daytime schedule. It's used to come on at 3:30 right behind GL before CBS changed their schedule. I would change the channel to ABC for The Edge of Night right at 3:58 when the announcer would say "This is CBS" at the end of One Day At A Time.

[Saving ATWT]

The poster is wrong about Full House and Wiki makes no mention of this ABC show having a NBC run of any sort http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_House#Broadcasting_history. The NBC site says nothing about Golden Girl repeats, either, and only speaks of Golden Whispers from the 1950's. The CBS Daytime site I posted says CBS stopped running repeats as of 1972 when 'four new game shows were added' to attract suburban viewers. CBS ALWAYS ran the 'This is CBS' bumper at the turn of the hour and even ran mini-news briefs much like ABC still does today. Ellen Show runs on NBC4 in NYC but is on a CBS station in my home town and there were always CBS promos because it followed GL for the soap's final season.

I remember repeats of Alice, The Jeffersons, Lucy and Mary Tyler Morre in the AM but, by that point in the 1980's, these shows were in First/Second Run Syndication on my local (WRGB) and not part of the CBS Network line up. By the mid-1980's, most soaps were up to one hour and I don't see where any network could have fit any repeat into the schedule. NBC had cronic problems (Generations and a failed game show block) and I could certainly see the network using repeats during a schedule change like CBS recently did with TPIR and LMAD. Golden Girls was considered vulgar back in the day and it would have been funny if it had any network daytime play. They were dirty old ladies and NBC ran it post the 'Family Hour' on Sat. nights even though it would have been a far better lead than 227 or Amen.

Monty, what year was this? I'm guessing it was before CBS added Capital and expanded Y&R to one hour? I actually miss those old Voice of God station ID's and wish they would bring them back. I think CBS was the final network to drop them after Westinghouse came in with Central Park West.

[Jess]

I think Y&R is dropping pretty fast too. It is just not a good environment for daytime soaps. All of them are dropping, but it had more to lose and it shows.

I also admit that it is hard for me to watch these shows where women fall in love with men who have abused them in one form or another. I do still like Y&R, but Sharon being in love with Adam after he kidnapped her child just kind makes me uneasy. I think daytime continues to look for Luke and Laura II. All they come up with a stories that I just do not like.

I totally disagree with all the sunshine for OLTL. The show has been a bottom feeder consistently for months. It's periodic bumps up in the ratings are the anomalies not its being at the bottom. GH actually seems to be the more consistent of the ABC soaps. AMC goes up and down with story lines. OLTL does not. OLTL has brought back the original actors who play Marty and Kelly and it did not matter one bit. They brought in Kim Zimmer. They even had that actor who played Dylan on GH for a while. I think there is something fundamentally wrong with this show. I no longer watch it and have no certain opinion on what it is. Perhaps it is the time. Perhaps it is the stories. I know it focused a lot on very, very young characters. Something is just fundamentally wrong with OLTL and I don't see it growing in ratings relative to other shows unless that changes.

[jpoliver78]

Of course you are wrong, but typically, you can't bring yourself to admit it.

In "The Complete Directory of Prime Time Network and Cable TV Shows" it explicitly says in the listings for both "Golden Girls" and "Full House" that both aired re-runs on NBC Daytime and gives the years in which both aired.

Here is a link to the Wikipedia page I was talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_network_television_schedules

Click on the "Weekday" listing for 1989, 1990, and 1991 and you will plainly see repeat episodes of "Golden Girls" and "Full House" airing on NBC mixed in with the NBC Daytime gameshows.

Of course, I'm sure none of these FACTS will dissuade you from your already predetermined conclusion that you are right and everyone else is wrong.

[bellcurve]

+1

[DRW50]

GH has also had consistent declines, and this with a lot more money spent on it. For GH to actually lose ratings (I think including the valued demos) when Vanessa Marcil is back -- that takes some work.

I think something is fundamentally wrong with OLTL, especially in it's male characters and in its shame towards its best assets, but unfortunately that seems to be true for most soaps today, except for B&B, which for better or worse rigidly sticks to its core format.

I would say that Marty's return did bring in a sustained ratings increase, and I'm not a fan of this character. It was only when the show told us that rape is love and that the rapist is the real victim that the ratings fell.

[DRW50]

I think that those ads ABC ran last week said a lot about what has happened to their soaps. It's only my opinion, but to run ads for your entire week which focuses solely on overexposed, and in some cases, extremely abusive, couples -- do viewers want to see this? Two of the three (Rylee and Todd/Tea) involve men hitting or almost hitting women. Sam/Jason involved her losing her mind over him for years and being his lapdog at the best of times -- and this is actually one of the couples I probably like more on GH at the moment.

[Saving ATWT]

I guess NBC used Full House and Golden Girls to fill up holes in the schedule. As I said in my earlier post, 'NBC had cronic problems (Generations and a failed game show block) and I could certainly see the network using repeats during a schedule change like CBS recently did with TPIR and LMAD.' My Wiki link made no mention of the repeats, maybe because repeats don't get counted in ratings or something along those lines. I'm starting to like when you go all katty Queen on me I've never had issue with fact, or admitting error. Most of the arguments on here are subjective, opinions, things like KISH, which we talked about last week, that can't be quantified, fact checked or easily proven right or wrong. People state opinions and back them up with data or ideas.

+1 on the fact check. As for your irate 'Of course, I'm sure none of these FACTS will dissuade you from your already predetermined conclusion that you are right and everyone else is wrong,' your comment makes little sense to me. In the end, none of us will ever know what storyline/writer/character actually effects ratings. That is why I call them 'Fearless Predictions' as opposed to Proven Fact.

[Saving ATWT]

I sort of wonder whether ABC isn't fighting against Jerry Springer for the Trailer Park demo with the extreme abuse content. The entire 'Abusive Men and the (many) Women who Love Them' theme aims low and makes me wonder what 'research' about viewers the network is using. It really started getting bad a few years back with teens getting married on ATWT, the who's your daddy trio OLTL, and with Sonny and his car bomb on GH. So many of these relationships/situations seem like they could be plucked directly from an episode of Steve Wilkos Show.