A new writer can infuse Daytime with energy

[remos]

Hee hee hee.... we also had a saying in Latin carved in stone over the dorm's side door "Don't let the bastards get you down". Perhaps it's Maritime humour.

I agree... changing the writers won't mean anything if those pushing their story desires are still pushing it. I don't think the problem is Guza et al as much as it's the Network heavies. But I've felt for a long time that TPTB are too focused on money and not on story. It's a matter of perspective and appreciation of the genre. And quite honestly I think most of the networks just see soaps as the work horses of Network Television rather than a medium that deserves respect.

[Saving ATWT]

I doubt the run classes for anything anymore. Also, writing by committee never works and is daytime's biggest problem: Focus group, network hacks, the actual writer, the EP. I'm pretty sure the networks meant to speed up the pace of soaps because everyone used to complain about soaps moving to slow. Somewhere here is a logic that, if you can tell an entire story per episode, people will want to tune in every day as they do with CDI, L&O. For the final season of ATWT they ran the promo 'Every Day Counts' and every episode was spiked with a dose of speed. They basically tossed the 2/3 production model but the show was still painful to watch...ouch!

[EricMontreal22]

I think the program does still run, but I agree about comittee. Even the major writers started complaining about this in the 80s, when things weren't as bad as they are now (I know this is one reason neither Bill Bell nor Agnes Nixon wanted to move to the hour format as well, as that spread out the writing to a larger degree).

[Saving ATWT]

Yeah, I just saw the ABC TV program but really wonder if TPTB just don't cherry pick and hire through nepotism. These 'diversity' programs are often set up to avoid lawsuit or deflect allegations of there being a 'boy's club'. I get why Bell must have resisted the hour long format for a five day per week show. That is a lot of work for one writer. Someone on here a while back said the overall quality of soaps was better when they were 30 minutes long. No way could Irma have done so many shows if they were all one hour. I'm still shocked that just Irma and Bell did ATWT for all of those years without breakdown and script writers but it actually makes sense. Look at how many people work on B&B today and the quality is no better and, possibly, quite a bit lower.

[EricMontreal22]

To be fair, Irna never wrote more than one show at a time post the radio era (and even then she mainly stuck with GL from the 40s on), She co created ATWT with Agnes Nixon and then pretty immediately handed GL over to Agnes and left her basically alone (after, some people think, somewhat saboraging GL and killing off one of the top characters). Of course Bill Bell DID essentially HW Days and Y&R (though he was less involve din Days) for years, and Y&R and B&Bas well of course. Similarly, due to contracts, Agnes Nixon wrote GL (back when it was still 15 minutes, mind you) and AW for a couple of years, and then AW and OLTL for over a year--as well as OLTL and AMC for about three years and I suppose some cross over between Loving and AMC (though by then she had quite a team set up and could focus more on one or the other). Bell and Irna were the main two (often only) writers for ATWT back when ti was always the top soap in the 60s.

But yeah, it's a completely different setup I think--back in the 70s often it was essentially one writer with a main assistant (Wisner Washam for Agnes, Kay Alden for Bill, etc) and then a few other script writers helping, but the headwriter would have time to rewrite every script, etc. Of course when soaps went to an hour a lot of actors also simplys aid they wouldn't do it--interviewed in 1976, much of the AMC cast said they'd leave the show if it went to an hour (and some did, but many of course didn't).

[Saving ATWT]

Never really understood why actors left Y&R after the flip to one hour. I would guess that more hours would mean more pay but could be wrong; however, the unions have always been good on these issues. The Irma/Bell days on ATWT were great in that you only had two people in charage and this certainly created more accountability. Today, blame can be shared on a show like Y&R and no one really knows who creates what story. As an example, was Maura West (Diane) a network grab by Bloom and did she demand this much airtime? Are these choices being made by MAB, SH, HS? I think you generally get a better product when one or two writers are responsible.

[remos]

"Blame" for what works and what doesn't is such a difficult thing anyway though, because it's not as if there's universal agreement amoungst viewers as to what works and what doesn't. I'm often of two minds - I might not like something because I really don't like the characters, but that doesn't mean the story isn't worth telling.

I think it's a very dangerous game to point fingers and think a few removed heads will fix any problems when in fact a lot of what is perceived today has been created by the culture which writes soaps and the culture of those who watch soaps. When you're perpetually the overworked underdog of the entertainment business, how can you possibly stand tall and become critically acclaimed regardless of what you do?

Now that's not to say we don't need new blood - we most certainly do. But it's not merely a case of shooting the ducks in the proverbial barrel and replacing them.

[EricMontreal22]

Right, although P&G was especially hard (even with Irna) on what could be written (Agnes Nixon has commented a lot about how different it was writing for Another World and then the same month writing for OLTL--back when ABC gave their writers a ton of leeway).

As for actors leaving--it makes sense to me. When soaps were half hour, except on special occasions, you'd be home and done work by 4:30, 5, often even earlier. The workload really becomes a *lot* more. Y&R was West Coast so this may not have been as much of an aspect, but with the cast of AMC several actors mentioned they loved how doing the soap still allowed them to do their first love, theatre. It's true that there have been actors who have worked Broadway and still been in their soap at the same time (Marcie's actress on OLTL was on fairly heavily while in Hairspray), but they have to put in even more hours, huge scheduling conflicts, and it's just exhausting.

[remos]

Something else with the length of the day is that way back when the actors arrived around dawn and then sat around while the entire show was taped beginning to end. JE has spoken at length about this - how it was great for character/relationship building but it was an exhausting day and then you had to get up the next day and do it all over again. That would seriously deplete creative juices as well as hurt a personal life.

[Sylph]

I don't know, I think what Saving ATWT (that failed, didn't it?) makes no sense. Look at British or Australian soaps – there are tons of people doing those and sometimes it's fabulous, sometimes it's crap. It's not a matter of number of people. Then look at Greek soaps: two people are penning the storylines for the current, huge one and it's awesome.

So it's not a rule.

What I think is killing the business (not only of soaps, but entertainment in general) is the guilds. Which are deeply necessary, however. So it's a loose-loose situation.

Another thing: British soaps have somehow managed to create a ciclus, it's two or three years of very good soapiness and then it's five years of bull. American soaps in the past... how many years exactly? have been nothing but crap and on a downward spiral.

[bellcurve]

When does it ever make sense?

[Sylph]

That is all you have to say?!

I forgot about TR soaps: you have something like this (two people adapted a novel, megapopular, ending tragic) or this (one person).

No rules.

All the foreign ones put the US ones to shame.

[remos]

Two things jump out from this...

1 - American culture has no patience anymore to work out some of these story issues. Instant gratification is diametrically opposed to daytime storytelling, which by definition is a long, drawn out process. The struggle between the two is the hardest thing for the creative elements to deal with.

2 - British soaps have another handicap - who wants to tell the Queen of England her favourite show is cancelled?

[Sylph]

Well, then, if America now wants instant gratification, it means soaps have run their course. Nothing else to do if what they could offer doesn't satisfy the current cultural movements. And actually goes against them.

[remos]

Exactly. And it's quite evident that the writers are responding to it. GH is the worst I think (acknowledging that I don't want CBS shows and only skim the rest), but the knee-jerk reactions Guza has had are startling and disappointing and have really killed some stories that might have been surprisingly interesting. I'm thinking Toxic Balls being the biggest and most recent example of that.

I'm always struck that fans are demanding stories move faster while complaining that the stories aren't deep or meaningful..... you can't have it both ways.