4 minutes ago, kalbir said:

You'll love these from 1987 and 1990.

I was about to post these!😂

Thanks!

15 minutes ago, Soapsuds said:

I was about to post these!😂

Thanks!

We think alike

You're welcome.

Those three recasts HR, CB and MES were all terrible. It was the damper on what could have been a banner year for the show.

2 hours ago, VelekaCarruthers said:

Those three recasts HR, CB and MES were all terrible. It was the damper on what could have been a banner year for the show.

I don't think Claire Beckman was anything great, but Sabrina was always a very wan character and the show never tried for more. A while back @Mitch64 suggested she should have been very frank, a crude British in-your-face type (compared to the "BBC English" type). I would have preferred that, at least early on.

I like Heather Rattray and Mary Ellen Stuart. I think the issue was the writing. On paper, Lily becoming a darker character makes sense, and had had a lot of buildup, but I don't think it played well onscreen and I don't think Martha could have sold it either. The choice to take her to ingenue status again and just pining for Holden was a suggestion of the show losing interest in her, but I thought Heather played most of that well, in spite of not having chemistry with Jon Hensley (I didn't really think anyone had chemistry with Jon Hensley at that point).

Mary Ellen Stuart being put into the Sean Baxter story, again I think just a bad storyline, maybe one of Marland's biggest misfires. Burke Moses was hot, but he'd have to go around apeshit to try to convince us he'd beaten his ex, or whatever the story was trying to sell. And again, the central relationship was not compelling. IIRC this was another backstory-heavy relationship, which is rarely a great idea.

1990 is, aside from Kim/Bob/Susan and Casey's death, so often just a setup for future stories and an awkward year, Marland reassessing the show and taking us towards his darkest run.

Thanks @kalbir for the scans. That part about Kathryn Hays being a likely Emmy nominee is sad.

Edited August 6Aug 6 by DRW50

You're welcome @DRW50

It's always a huge mistake to retcon identical twins. No matter what. JM played Franny and Sabrina and was in a class by herself, obviously, almost irreplaceable, but they could have worked harder to find a special actress. To replace her with an actress who had none of the vulnerability or fragility plus add another actress to play the twin ....made no sense to me. And we were asked to digest HR who also was missing MB's vulnerability.  Of course, I was losing interest in Marland's ATWT in 1990 because of the huge, unwieldy cast, endless group exposition scenes in the hospital cafeteria etc.  The Susan/Kim/Bob triangle was a master class storyline, though, primarily because of the actors and their history.

Unpopular opinion, but Julianne Moore wasn't all that much to write home about.. but I will concede that she was able to make both Sabrina and Frannie completely different characters and play them both well.

With that said, I thought Mary Ellen was a much better Frannie then Julianne Moore was.. but I think it's difficult to really put yourself into a character if you're playing two different characters (Ellen Wheeler and Anne Heche struggled at first to make Vicky and Marley distinctly different and fully fleshed out characters).

Claire Beckman wasn't given much to work with as Sabrina, and the history and writing was there to make Sabrina more of a grey character.  Remember Sabrina did pretend to be Frannie in order to get Seth to sleep with her... she did to her sister what Kim did to her sister.   And I think Claire Beckman would have played those darker aspects of Sabrina (she did that when playing Silver Kane on AMC) with more flare then the passive way Julianne Moore approached the material.

Martha Byrne was much better when she came back in 1993 to about 1997 then she was when she played Lily originally from 1985 to 1989 and after 1997.

I liked Heather Rattray as Lily.  She was more mature, more assertive, taller (lol), and ready for a new romance.  With John Hensley gone from the show, Marland probably figured it was the end of "Holden and Lily" and was eager to explore a new direction for Lily.  However, once Hensley returned, Marland must have realized he couldn't keep the two characters apart -- despite their lack of chemistry.

I also liked Mary Ellen Stuart.  Her relationship with brother Tom felt very natural. (I love how she was the only one to call Tom, "Tommy").  And she had a huge bond with step-brother/cousin Andy.  Unfortunately, Stuart was saddled with two horrible stories (Sean's palimony suit and the Crawford murder mystery) and was paired with two men with whom she had zero chemistry.  

Sabrina was NEVER written well, so poor Clare Beckman had very little to work with.  The character was basically brought back to help with Tonio's exit.

17 minutes ago, MarlandFan said:

I liked Heather Rattray as Lily.  She was more mature, more assertive, taller (lol), and ready for a new romance.  With John Hensley gone from the show, Marland probably figured it was the end of "Holden and Lily" and was eager to explore a new direction for Lily.  However, once Hensley returned, Marland must have realized he couldn't keep the two characters apart -- despite their lack of chemistry.

I also liked Mary Ellen Stuart.  Her relationship with brother Tom felt very natural. (I love how she was the only one to call Tom, "Tommy").  And she had a huge bond with step-brother/cousin Andy.  Unfortunately, Stuart was saddled with two horrible stories (Sean's palimony suit and the Crawford murder mystery) and was paired with two men with whom she had zero chemistry.  

Sabrina was NEVER written well, so poor Clare Beckman had very little to work with.  The character was basically brought back to help with Tonio's exit.

I wonder what they would have done with Lily sans Holden. Would she have had the story with Linc that Connor had? I did think she and Linc had some chemistry.

The thing with Hensley is I don't even believe he had chemistry with Martha when she returned in 1993. He just felt completely checked out long before he left (again). I suppose not getting any parts in his last exit beyond a bodyguard on 90210 helped energize him a little more when he came back in late 96.

To me, MES did have good chemistry with Rex Smith. That's the only reason I believed the rushed Frannie/Daryl pairing as much as I did, which was otherwise too plot-driven a story for Frannie, just trying to recreate her story with Douglas Cummings. I wonder if Marland went back to the well because his other stories for her had never clicked. I wouldn't have minded seeing them try more with Larry/Frannie, but there was no story. By this point in ATWT's run Marland seemed to favor plot over character in many cases. I wonder if, say, Lyla/Casey would have been a pairing if the story had started in 1990 instead of 1986.

4 hours ago, VelekaCarruthers said:

It's always a huge mistake to retcon identical twins. No matter what. JM played Franny and Sabrina and was in a class by herself, obviously, almost irreplaceable, but they could have worked harder to find a special actress. To replace her with an actress who had none of the vulnerability or fragility plus add another actress to play the twin ....made no sense to me. And we were asked to digest HR who also was missing MB's vulnerability.  Of course, I was losing interest in Marland's ATWT in 1990 because of the huge, unwieldy cast, endless group exposition scenes in the hospital cafeteria etc.  The Susan/Kim/Bob triangle was a master class storyline, though, primarily because of the actors and their history.

I can agree sometimes with the error in giving identical roles to two actresses - I would much rather AW have recast Vicky and Marlay than what ended up happening - but with Sabrina and Frannie it didn't bother me as much because they were only together on the show for about a year and a half, and only really interacted in story for half that time. 

I agree that MES didn't have Julianne's vulnerability, but there was still a certain softness and natural family connection I appreciated. 

4 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Unpopular opinion, but Julianne Moore wasn't all that much to write home about.. but I will concede that she was able to make both Sabrina and Frannie completely different characters and play them both well.

With that said, I thought Mary Ellen was a much better Frannie then Julianne Moore was.. but I think it's difficult to really put yourself into a character if you're playing two different characters (Ellen Wheeler and Anne Heche struggled at first to make Vicky and Marley distinctly different and fully fleshed out characters).

Claire Beckman wasn't given much to work with as Sabrina, and the history and writing was there to make Sabrina more of a grey character.  Remember Sabrina did pretend to be Frannie in order to get Seth to sleep with her... she did to her sister what Kim did to her sister.   And I think Claire Beckman would have played those darker aspects of Sabrina (she did that when playing Silver Kane on AMC) with more flare then the passive way Julianne Moore approached the material.

They did Beckman dirty with Sabrina. There were at least a few glimmers of manipulation and resentment under Moore's Sabrina, but there was nothing with Sabrina when she came back. 

I think Moore's Frannie worked better in the everyday scenes with her family than in the high profile storylines. 

14 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I wonder what they would have done with Lily sans Holden. Would she have had the story with Linc that Connor had? I did think she and Linc had some chemistry.

The thing with Hensley is I don't even believe he had chemistry with Martha when she returned in 1993. He just felt completely checked out long before he left (again). I suppose not getting any parts in his last exit beyond a bodyguard on 90210 helped energize him a little more when he came back in late 96.

I'm not certain what Marland's initial plan was for the "new" Lily, but immediately upon Lily's return in 1990, he had her doing things that were totally out of character. She flirted HEAVILY with several men (Shaun, Linc, Colin).  She took a sudden and intense interest in business (whereas from '85 to '89 she had shown absolute disdain for Walsh Enterprises).  And finally, Lily was now conniving and duplicitous (something to do with Barbara and the sending of a note?  Sorry - bad memory.)  I remember all of these character changes being very jarring to me as a regular viewer.  Marland may have meant for Linc to be Lily's eventual destination (another "rich girl"/"poor boy" story that Marland seemed to like) but I think Hensley's return changed everything.  Marland immediately brought back the "good" Lily.

Hensley was definitely "checked out" as you put it.  He was a lazy actor as far as I was concerned.  He always struggled to remember his lines and his emotional range was limited.  He was one of the most handsome men to ever grace a TV screen -- but he took it for granted.  He knew ATWT was always there for him as a safety net if other projects didn't work out.  And he was a superstar without really having to work for it. 

25 minutes ago, MarlandFan said:

I'm not certain what Marland's initial plan was for the "new" Lily, but immediately upon Lily's return in 1990, he had her doing things that were totally out of character. She flirted HEAVILY with several men (Shaun, Linc, Colin).  She took a sudden and intense interest in business (whereas from '85 to '89 she had shown absolute disdain for Walsh Enterprises).  And finally, Lily was now conniving and duplicitous (something to do with Barbara and the sending of a note?  Sorry - bad memory.)  I remember all of these character changes being very jarring to me as a regular viewer.  Marland may have meant for Linc to be Lily's eventual destination (another "rich girl"/"poor boy" story that Marland seemed to like) but I think Hensley's return changed everything.  Marland immediately brought back the "good" Lily.

IIRC, when Barbara crossed her over business matters, Lily sent Hal a letter - I think saying that Barbara had known he was Adam's biological father? I can't remember. It definitely wasn't in character for her. 

They'd started having Lily tied to Walsh in Martha's last year, but you're right, she never seemed happy there. 

I guess the idea of all this was Lily had changed because of Derek and the burns, this was her breakdown, but I don't know how well it came across onscreen.

Martina was the first adult Annie and the center of the next generation youth story. I don't believe there are any of her episodes around. 

Just uploaded a handful of decent quality ATWT episodes on Internet Archive. Hope you enjoy them:

https://archive.org/details/atwt-various-episodes-1986-1996

46 minutes ago, Search For Yesterday said:

Just uploaded a handful of decent quality ATWT episodes on Internet Archive. Hope you enjoy them:

https://archive.org/details/atwt-various-episodes-1986-1996

These are amazing.  Great quality and some have never been up on YouTube.  Thank you!