OLTL: Discussion for the week October 19

[Chris B]

OLTL has always been a mediocre soap and deserves to be ABC's redheaded stepchild. And I say that as a fan. The show hasn't had a true identity for decades. They'll hire a new EP and it's an entirely new show. Each era has it's own characters with a few mainstays struggling to stay relevant in the new format. Promising characters are always killed off and there are too many mental illness stories. I think when Tina returned it highlighted the lack of vision the show faces. She was like a character from another show, because OLTL was another show then.

[DRW50]

That's true about OLTL, they haven't had a solid identity in 30 years or more. Of course now that's true for all the soaps.

I think the Tina return would have worked if they had planned it out better. Even a short term return could have worked. To have her spend her return mired in the Mendorra nonsense (which ultimately didn't even have a point -- Talia was killed six months later and Antonio and Sarah are gone), then have her play a wacky supporting role in the awful Tess story, it just wasted her. It also made Viki look bad, because she disowned Tina, yet she's still close to Todd.

[oltl1]

Ouch, that's a little harsh. Although I agree that there is a great deal of underutilized potential, I hesitate to call OLTL the worst ABC drama. Have you watched All My Children recently.

[Vee]

OLTL has had a solid identity many times over the years, even if it isn't always the one you or I might want. It knew what it was in the '80s, for much of the '90s, and I think it knows again today. The claim that OLTL has anything to worry about compared to AMC or GH is laughable. It towers over them in quality.

Safe to say I don't exactly take criticism from Jack or Sylph seriously. OLTL is far from perfect (as others have said, the Todd morass is hellish) but I think most of its stories work, including and especially the gay marriage story, which I think is a healthy mix of comic relief, serious romance (for both Kish and D&D), and social commentary. What's wrong with doing all three at once, if you can? Not every story can or should be Billy Douglas weeping at the pulpit. That gets old. I think the current gay storyline on this show is more substantial and groundbreaking than anything daytime has ever done with gay and lesbian characters, and sadly, more than it probably ever will do again. I also am invested in Kyle and Oliver, David and Dorian - even Cristian and Layla.

There are many fair criticisms, some of which fall on the show and some of which seem to come from the network. I think a lot of the stories do have rushed beats, but I think that's more a product of ABC Daytime today than anything else. More and more we hear that the story notes which come from the network emphasize cutting character moments for plot in order to stay on track for time and other things they want to see, versus what the fans do. Carlivati wanted to keep Tina and use her with the right people, but ABC wanted her gone. Last year's Tess mess was somehow tampered with, if not totally redone; at one point (just before Nash died) they were casting Nora's sister to return and be Jessica's therapist, only for the character to never appear and Tess to spend months boring us all to death. Frons clearly had no interest in the Buchanan Enterprises story with Dorian and co., for example, or in Dorian keeping a contract love interest as old as A Martinez. The fact is I think much of the uneven tone and truncated storylines come more from ABC management, and the havoc they wreak, then from OLTL itself. Other writers are good or bad, but the scattershot approach seems to affect each soap on the network.

Dorian and David's love story may be on again-off again and at times a rollercoaster, but I think it's been internally consistent up through and including the Buddhist story, which turned quite sweet and romantic near the end. That's what a lot of people seem to have trouble with in the last few years, when Carlivati stories meld romance or serious drama with comedic setups. He does that a lot. It doesn't bother me, but it seems to irk many people.

As for the Todd mess, I think it was Frons that insisted they toss the characters headlong back into these idiotic bedroom follies and get away from the icky rape stuff. Which is not to say RC is much better on that front because it seems clear that he keeps shoehorning in various overly-close Todd and Marty scenes and scenarios. And the writing for Tea is alternately interesting and overly-propped - how are we to accept her as any kind of 'heroine' when she tries to bribe Ross today to stay out of his kid's life, with no regard for his love for the child?

[Vee]

Your well-thought-out analysis dazzles me.

[SFK]

OLTL was SO good during the whole Lord saga of Viki's DID/Dorian's death row sentence/David coming to the rescue with Irene's diary/Todd's true paternity, I wish they never would have strayed from whatever magic they had going during that era. I can appreciate humor on a soap opera, like Agnes Nixon's AMC idea of humor where it grew out of wonderfully drawn characters, the "funny" was organic and heart warming (Opal, Erica, Phoebe, Langley, even Ray Gardner and Billy Clyde). It has its moments, but generally speaking, I am not a fan of the heavy-handed hamminess of OLTL's current idea of comedy, and yes I know that OLTL was campy and fun during Rauch's era, but that's a totally different story. The show could be OTT but it took itself rather seriously (the recipe for true camp), it wasn't a satire of itself which is a trap that the show has fallen into in more recent years. I think the writing and the portrayal of characters like David, Dorian, Roxie, Rex is... not always so good. I know they have their fans (Dorian has always been my favorite character), but the comedy is being written in poster paint, I mean, can we rein it in just a bit both in front of and behind the cameras, and we will all laugh even harder and be amused on an even deeper level when we're not being hit over the head with one liners. The laughs are cheap.

Watching some of the old Gottlieb/Malone stuff, I'm impressed in retrospect at how successful they were at transitioning the show. I remember how people HATED the champagne opening for example, and now I see how perfectly it fit the dimmer, moodier OLTL (which was also attempting to recapture its socially relevant roots). The show looked good, it felt good, it had gravitas. It was VERY entertaining, and I for one hated to miss even a day. I know it's a new day, but if OLTL wants to find its true voice, I think they really need to get back in touch with that 1970s/early '90s depth, they have the lighter (and sadly, the more abysmal) qualities of the show's other eras going just fine. This show is by no means awful, but it has a LOT more potential!

[MichaelGL]

Let me see..

60s-Early 80s Nixon’s vision basically. A soap set in Llanview based on the lives of its diverse population.

80s OLTL was this over the top storytelling kind of soap filled with adventure stories and etc. A modern day GH pretty much.

90s and perhaps up until Tomlin's OLTL had this identity of this urban based drama that tackled social issues and adventure stories every now and then.

Tomlin and Co- A little comic relief thrown in and in a way reverted back its roots during the 80s of over the top stories.

Malone and Higley - the show was a collage of many different identities, most notably during Malone(One minute its focusing on LU, no wait it‘s a crime drama, no wait it‘s a West Wing rip off, no wait it‘s the Sopranos). Higley I guess tried go back to the over the top storytelling with stunts and etc. Failed miserably at trying to tackle serious issues.

RC-I see him as trying to mesh 90s Malone with 80s OLTL. Tackling of social issues with some over the top stories.

Pretty much my assessment. IMO compared to other soaps, OLTL has to be one of those soaps that haven’t changed their identity as much as the others (a few of those currently being defunct). Much of the HWs of the past have simply tried to recapture the OLTL that existed before they arrived, be it the adventure era of the 80s or the tackling of the social issues during the early 90s.

I agree there. Such a statement doesn’t make sense to me, since I catch both AMC and GH often, and out of all the ABC soaps, while OLTL has its issues, it still towers over AMC and GH over quality, most notably the fact the OLTL seems to be the only ABC soap with heart and a sense of community. But then again that’s JMHO.

For me the fact that they’re not particularly portraying the gay characters as saints and heroines who we MUST root for, is what gets my attention. (Ahem ATWT)

I agree.

[Sylph]

[SFK]

But I don't think its OLTL's quality compared to AMC and GH that worries people though, it's its 3rd class citizen status on the network. And Lord knows, TPTB would sooner cancel quality over what they see as "a proven commodity".

[DRW50]

I think that ended after the Labines left, already sputtering out in the boring run with Pissy/Laiman/Sloane. The JFP era of the late 90s was very dark, very atmospheric, depressing, full of style over substance, mostly whites only, dismantling as much of what remained of the old OLTL as possible, mostly JFP's favorite actors showcased in barely there stories that went on and on.

I don't think it is necessarily an insult to OLTL to say it's had a different identity for most of its run. I mean, how many of those identities were ratings and/or critical smashes? The Gordon Russell era was wonderful and also had good ratings. The Buchanan family arriving in Llanview was a system shock but in the long term, a hugely benefical move. The Rauch era was ultimately a hollow drum, but also well-rated and gave some very memorable stories to iconic characters like Tina, Viki, Megan, and Gabrielle. Then Gottlieb and Malone/Griffith made the show into a socially relevant, diverse ensemble which had not been seen in 25 years.

Really I think the show began the process of trading in on a strong identity when they brought in Jacquie Courtney and George Reinholt, but again, that worked. It helped save the show. Over and over OLTL has done what they needed to do to survive, and compared to other soaps, still has a big part of their history left in Viki and in Dorian.

I also agree that the show is better than AMC and GH are at the moment, and that that doesn't seem to matter. ABC Daytime is now at the point where backstage relationships are what make or break, and Frons is too fond of Pratt and Guza to put them out of a job.

[DRW50]

I think where I take issue with the gay marriage story is that I don't really know what the investment is. It's great that they are talking about gay marriage, and it's nice that this story isn't about homophobes against the saintly homosexual, but the story is muddled. Is this a cause to believe in, or is this something which is being forced onto the canvas by schemers Nick and Amelia? Dorian was forced into getting involved and the issue has ended up becoming more about her own baggage with David and her need to beat Viki. Outside of Dorian's role, the gay characters may not be developed enough for viewers to care. Viewers barely know Kyle, and he's had a big personality rewrite midway through. Viewers have barely seen him with Fish, so how many of them are going to be that invested in him wanting Fish but marrying Nick? Viewers have barely seen Kyle and Nick together. Most of the time we see Fish, he's suffering and suffering, and some people may just turn that off. And there may not be anything long term, because gay marriage isn't likely to ever be brought up in other stories, there aren't enough gay characters on the show for this to be an issue, and most of Fish's future story will likely revolve around his straight dalliance with Stacy.

I know that OLTL may not have had the option of just writing a gay love triangle, or a gay romance. They may have had to marry this with Dorian and the mayoral election, since Dorian, Viki, and gay characters are all somewhere below cow patties on Frons's list of what is acceptable. But I think that this story, like a lot of other stories, has had such problems in execution and it's hard to understand or be involved in most of what's going on.

I just wish they'd spent more time to make viewers care about Kyle and Fish as a couple, or as characters, much less all this other stuff. Perhaps Frons gave them no choice.

I agree with you, Frons does seem to keep mucking stories up. I guess he could have given his support and then yanked it midway through. Otherwise, they shouldn't have done the stories in the first place, if they thought he was going to stomp on them. The way it unfolded, the stories had no real payoff.

Of all the stories over the past year or two years I think the only one that had some payoff was the baby switch, although I think that the fallout could have gone on longer.

[Vee]

There's payoff and then there's larger payoffs. For example, I thought the Asa's death/BE/Jared and Natalie arc that began in fall '07 paid off spectacularly with the shareholders meeting, Dorian's takeover and Nash's death. I considered that a major climax to the story. It's where it went from there that it went off the rails. Likewise, I thought the Todd/Marty confrontation last November was wonderful, but by New Year's Eve the story was a mess and the characters involved have never recovered - nor were those scenes in November worth what Todd and Marty's sexual encounter (and it was rape) has done to cripple the characters. So there's a smaller scale and a larger scale. I also thought the Rex and Gigi love story actually played out well, all the way to their reunion at La Boulaie when Rex came out of his coma. And I think most of the time, Carlivati plays new love stories (Jared and Natalie, Brody and Jessica, Viki and Charlie, etc) slowly, with all their beats, better than almost anyone left in daytime. He even did it well with Cristian and Sarah, that unfortunate couple. And for what it's worth, I thought the wrapup of Spencer's murder, the Tommy storyline, etc. climaxing in Viki and Charlie's romance and the Viki/Marcie stand-off at the Bon Jour was a good five months of perfection. When Carlivati is working well, the storylines are plotted and interconnected with a tender care and intricacy that I do not see on modern daytime. Even today, in good or bad stories, we still often see that connective and intersecting story tissue; I hear it will be coming up in sweeps again with several plotlines as well.

As for the gays, I still don't mind the ambiguities. I think Nick and Amelia are as fleshed out as they need to be as supporting players; they are dedicated to their cause, and Nick genuinely cares for Kyle. We can agree or disagree with them as we please, but the point is there is a range of different types of GLBT characters, all with distinct personality sketches, all onscreen at once. And I disagree that Kish have not been developed; their fanbase would differ - I think they've gotten a lot of development, though much of Kyle's has come from Claywell's performance since the audience identifier has always been Oliver so far, with Kyle as the distant lost love. And I think that's understandable and a valid narrative choice. That can and should change as Kyle and Oliver get closer again. Further, I don't think Kyle's personality changed so much as a few fans fell in love with the idea of the character being this scheming dark wastrel, whereas he turned out to simply be a desperate and troubled young man who got in over his head. I think that's a case of fans trying to fit their outline of the character to his consistent portrayal; even in his involvement with Jared, Nat and Stacy, Kyle has always been not a Marco Dane, but more a fairly nervous guy trying to do what it takes to get by. His first day onscreen was sweating bullets with the Buchanans, trying to look like a buttoned-down professional.

The other thing is the claim that the story is more about Dorian than the gay characters. I wouldn't be so sure. You go to boards like Soapcentral and you can find complaints that the show is too gay-oriented, and that Kyle, Oliver and Nick have taken over "Dorian and Viki's story." So it's a matter of perspective. I think both angles have been properly utilized, myself, with the possible exception of Viki. But I think RC has to sneak her onscreen as is.

[DRW50]

I completely agree that Kyle was never a dark character. They made sure his blackmailing was on a less malevolent level. I think the shift from a somewhat gray character, this guy who was so desperate to get his money, the guy who had the crazy murderous sister, is now extremely earnest, pining away, and apparently came from a happy loving family. I think they could have had it where he agreed to go along with this gay marriage ploy because Dorian offered him a big step up at the hospital if she won the election.

I can see where some might think the gay characters have taken over the Viki/Dorian story. I think it was more of RC knowing he probably had to combine the stories as otherwise they might not get on the air, since Frons doesn't like either subject. It's more the motivations behind the story, and the pacing, which I wish they'd worked more on. I think that up until last year, RC was better at building up a couple. As it is now, I can see where viewers wouldn't really know enough about Kyle and Fish to understand why they would want to be together. It's odd to me that the show had a photo of them wearing their KAD shirts but haven't had any flashbacks, since the flashbacks would fill in a lot of gaps.

That's true. I tend to forget about most of the earlier payoffs in the BE story because I was disappointed about what happened later on, with Dorian giving BE back after a few months, and then the non-ending to the David heir story. They did have some strong payoffs in the RC stories over the first year, like those you mentioned. I feel like somewhere around fall 2008 they started hitting roadblocks with story resolutions and that's continued ever since.

[Cheap21]

I really hope that this Thomas is not Tea's secret kid. Do the writers realize that Tea conceived this kid after Todd and Ross tried to kidnap Jack, you know the same Jack that is like 9-10 years old? The boy they showed today was a teen, at least 15

Good lord Kim is such a slut. Who realizes that they are low on money one day and then flips through the business section of a newspaper for a rich man to gold dig? She even considered going after Matthew which was pretty disgusting. She and Stacy are just nasty.

Liking Tea and Rachel's uneasy friendship today

[DRW50]

I believe that Tea sent her child to the Leah Bauer Academy.