Well, after listening tonight to her interview... it confirmed alot of my suspicions. First, she said that she left the first time because of friction with Rowell... big suprise. She also gave a spoiler hint that we should expect a hot and heavy love scene next month featuring her BALD HEAD..... oh dear God in heaven, what have we fans done to deserve THIS? After hearing her interact with callers, It's painfully obvious that she doesn't take her work SERIOUSLY. She doesn't have the LOVE, the PASSION, the FIRE IN HER BELLY to be an ACTOR. Of course, we all could tell that from what we see onscreen!! But the more she talks, the more she confirms it. She talked to her uncle a little bit, but otheriwse did NO RESEARCH for the cancer SL. Of course, not.. it would require work and dedication on her part, and we can't have that. Something tell me her "friction" with Rowell might very well be from her lack of professional responsibility. She also said that MANY people had problems with Rowell, too, even crew AND cast. There's obviously no lvoe loss between THOSE TWO. I'm predicting Rowell will fire another shot across Kahlil's bow in less than 24 hours.

Edited September 29, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

her ability to convey any emotion other than "My dog ate my homework" and "Oooh! Ice Cream Cone!" is literally non-existent.

LOL!!!!

And you know what, I can just HEAR her voice in my head saying thos exact things!

Edited October 10, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

Well, I can think of a couple. Kevin/Adam, Ashley/Amber, Amber/Jack, Cane/Victor, Adam/Jill.

I think you misunderstood what Norrth Cafe was saying. They were speaking to white characters who ONLY interact with blacks/asians/hispanics/etc... and nobody from their own race at all. And obviously, there's not one white character on Y&R you can use to refute that statement.

I think it'd be a different story if Christel, wasn't relating to mainstream black viewers because of how light her skin was and her valley girl accent, but at the same time, was at least a good actress who was capable of carrying the story. She would win far more viewers over that way if she at least tried something with the material. Her idea of "acting" is piss poor pathetic. "Oh my God, Colleen!" Then, her unwillingness to do her research for the cancer story and looking in the mirror like she just found the cereal box surprise when she saw her bald head. I don't relate to characters based on how light or how dark they are. Hell, I see more of myself in Lucy Coe than I do Drucilla. ( ) But in order for anyone to be able to get anything out of your performance, good or bad, you have to at least TRY with the material. But I think there would be a lot less of a backlash if she at least gave a damn about the material instead of strolling about the sets playing house like she's five.

Exactly! Hell, with the performances she's giving, NOBODY that's supposed to identify with Lily would. Black women. Cancer patients. People who've lost their best friends tragically. Women who have been conned by Aussie impostors. Bald women. Anyone who's lost their mother. NONE of these people can relate to the idiotic acting choices she's made in each of those stories.

And that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. It's a myth. Diana, Mary and Florence were not of mixed race, they were 100% black women.... and their clothes, hair and appearance wasn't foisted upon them, they did it themselves, they chose everything they wore themselves. The music was written, produced, performed by black people... but since it wasn't Aretha Franklin singing runs with her big fat ass on stage, then it wasn't "authentic". What gospel roots? Mary Wilson said she always laughed at that statement when it was made about them, cause none of them EVER sang in church. So are some of you saying that Christel would be acceptable if she "Acted" blacker? Even though she's mixed and has light skin? And exactly what constitutes acting "black enough" I'd be interested to know.

I'm not going to speak to your comments about the Supremes simply because I don't have the evidence to substantiate anything I may say (though I suspect you don't either). I WILL say that I find it highly implausible that ANY musical act at ANY time, let alone an all-black female trio in the 60s (!), have as much autonomy over their act as you're claiming they did.

As for Christel "acting black enough" or anything of that regard- please go through this thread and re-read all of the posts and maybe even check out a couple other threads relating to this subject. Read them and think critically about them because you're missing the point (that I thought I so clearly stated in my previous post) entirely.

Edited October 10, 200916 yr by juniorz1

I'd just like to add that I don't think she could act her way out of an OPEN paper bag... just sayin'.

I think the problem is that Khalil's Lily is that she's so divorced from anything to do with anyone who is African-American that it's troubling to fans who can't related to her and are probably peeved that she's supposed to 'represent them' in some way. Lily doesn't have to roll her neck - I think that's an absurd observation that it's what African American viewers want from an African-American character. I give people credit for having a far broader definition of 'culture' than that. I don't have any 'neck rollers' in my family, for the record, and we still view ourselves as in touch with our culture.

As an example of the frustration some fans seem to feel, does anyone know of ONE white character on the YnR who has little to no contact with other white characters? Ever???? Wouldn't you find that odd? We don't even have to think about how odd it would be because it NEVER HAPPENS in daytime. There are certainly characters who could spend most of their time interacting almost exclusively with the Winters family. The writers have just never done it.

Why doesn't it seem odd that Lily has been segregated, by and large, from the rest of the African-American cast? The writers cast African-American women for Devon to date (even his own freakin' "aunt"). The women he dates tend to turn out to be bit players more than anything. They could do the same if they wanted to with a white male character. They could cast bit players for, let's say, PB's Jack - who would date African-American women exclusively. That doesn't happen. Never has. I doubt it ever will on the YnR.

I think what's probably not being articulated, but seemingly felt, by fans is the notion of Lily's 'Blue Veins'. In African American culture, those who could LITERALLY show their 'blue veins' (the underside of the arm) were deemed 'high society'... There were 'paper bag tests' (you had to be LIGHTER in complexion than a paper bag to be considered 'high society'). It was an internalized extension of cultural racism for the African-American community. The YnR's PTB seem to unwittingly play to that notion. I don't think it's the fault of the actress and I don't dislike her for it (again, it's her sucking "acting" that annoys me). I do, however, understand fans' frustration even if I think she takes an unfair hit for something the writers and EPs seem (unwittingly?) guilty of...The more coarse explanation is the recognition of the 'field negro' and the 'house negro'.

Lily seems to have been deemed something 'other' than by the writers. She's 'post racial' without having to have been considered 'racial' at all. She and her 'blue veins' don't have to interact with others who are African-American, she doesn't have to date anyone who is African-American, etc, etc, etc...

For the record, I don't think fans are at fault for their expectations that broader views of African-American culture be displayed onscreen. The writers set it as a standard when Dru was cast, along with Nathan, Neil, Mamie, Dru's parents, (the FBI agent who went undercover and whose name escapes me right now - he was played by Phillip Morris Jr, I believe). As the Winters fade away, and the snooze producing Lily remains the only highly visible vestige of what was once a diverse family, TPTB set themselves up for the backlash.

Exactly!

What you're talking about is a very complex issue that you are only looking at from a very superficial standpoint.

The same thing happens both ways...people are often accused of being "too black" and offending a mainstream white audience. It's why black characters on various TV shows are often too safe or very one dimensional.

Execs don't seem to understand that while black people don't prefer seeing safe and boring for the sake of a mainstream audience, they also don't want to see "The Secret Diary of Desmond Pfeifer," "Homeboys In Outer Space," etc.

The same "racism" that you accuse people of inflicting upon poor wittle Christel, is probably the same type of "racism" that others have endured for not being "white enough" or simply not fitting into society's image of what black people need to be. I am not going to lie, I've been guilty of it from both ends and I have endured this from both ends.

But the same type of racism also exists within other ethnic groups and cultures as well.

And again, as I mentioned previously and as juniorz was so lovely to point out, this thread is not JUST about Christel and "how black she is." She could be Jerry Seinfeld for all I care and this still wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. This has everything to do with her talent and work ethic(you can tell bitch is only in this for the paycheck and has been since probably year one of her first run) and the way she has went about playing her character, while at the same time, making a pathetic attempt to play up to black viewers in interviews and organizations like NAACP when it is convenient for her. And even then, it's simply a throwaway line like, "OMG, thanks my Twiggers!" That is the stuff I find unacceptable. Is her lack of concern for issues that black people face in daytime. We can't help who we are, our mannerisms, our vocal inflection, etc, but what we can do when faced with questions about diversity, is give straight, intelligent, thought provoking answers instead of just saying, "Like OMG, we totally need more diversity. SO FETCH!" If Christel is part Pakistani, why isn't she talking about the lack of Middle Eastern/Arabic characters in daytime or primetime on Buzzworthy?

An intelligent answer that I could have believed her saying(that would have still riled up feathers) would have been: "While I do feel diversity is an important issue, seeing as how black people make up a large, if not overwhelming percentage of our viewing audience, I also feel like soaps shouldn't add diversity just for the sake of it. There has to be something there other than 'We need black people, quick!' Execs have to care first about minorities and their issues before we can solve that problem. How do we solve that? I'm not sure. But until we do that, then really, the same cycle will continue to repeat." But we all know Christel isn't known for her intelligence nor is she known for stepping outside the box.

Exactly. Bolded points and then some.

I think it'd be a different story if Christel, wasn't relating to mainstream black viewers because of how light her skin was and her valley girl accent, but at the same time, was at least a good actress who was capable of carrying the story. She would win far more viewers over that way if she at least tried something with the material. Her idea of "acting" is piss poor pathetic. "Oh my God, Colleen!" Then, her unwillingness to do her research for the cancer story and looking in the mirror like she just found the cereal box surprise when she saw her bald head. I don't relate to characters based on how light or how dark they are. Hell, I see more of myself in Lucy Coe than I do Drucilla. ( ) But in order for anyone to be able to get anything out of your performance, good or bad, you have to at least TRY with the material. But I think there would be a lot less of a backlash if she at least gave a damn about the material instead of strolling about the sets playing house like she's five.

Look at Peter Parros...he, by all accounts, has lighter skin but people still love and respect him as an actor because he tries with the material. He didn't roll his neck or say "My MAWMZ" but people still like him.

Yes!!!

And that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. It's a myth. Diana, Mary and Florence were not of mixed race, they were 100% black women.... and their clothes, hair and appearance wasn't foisted upon them, they did it themselves, they chose everything they wore themselves. The music was written, produced, performed by black people... but since it wasn't Aretha Franklin singing runs with her big fat ass on stage, then it wasn't "authentic". What gospel roots? Mary Wilson said she always laughed at that statement when it was made about them, cause none of them EVER sang in church. So are some of you saying that Christel would be acceptable if she "Acted" blacker? Even though she's mixed and has light skin? And exactly what constitutes acting "black enough" I'd be interested to know.

I don't think you understand the circumstances that went into creating authentic "black/gospel" music, or the circumstances that led to certain artist popularity, nor does this myth cover the challenges faced by AA women in breaking in the entertainment industry. CK would be acceptable if she accepted the responsibility and looked into the audience to whom her role was created for. "acting black" is another way of explaining people's personalities being shaped by the oppression, privilege, opportunities, history, etc... Her history as a Winters is deep and rich and full and included race related issues. For a more comfortable representation of that look to Olivia Winters.

Believe me, I wish CK didn't have to "act anything". I wish she could break out of soaps and join someone's cast playing what she's best at- a character with no discernible race. Unfortunately "light skin" is not white. But CK will never get a role designated for a white actress, in fact there are probably not enough roles available for this actress to get off the show, and for that I'm pissed.

I don't think you understand the circumstances that went into creating authentic "black/gospel" music, or the circumstances that led to certain artist popularity, nor does this myth cover the challenges faced by AA women in breaking in the entertainment industry. CK would be acceptable if she accepted the responsibility and looked into the audience to whom her role was created for. "acting black" is another way of explaining people's personalities being shaped by the oppression, privilege, opportunities, history, etc... Her history as a Winters is deep and rich and full and included race related issues. For a more comfortable representation of that look to Olivia Winters.

Well said!

I don't think you understand the circumstances that went into creating authentic "black/gospel" music, or the circumstances that led to certain artist popularity, nor does this myth cover the challenges faced by AA women in breaking in the entertainment industry.

I understand it perfectly well, as one of these black women in the entertainment industry is a good friend of mine, and we've talked about the issue plenty good. It's not a matter of pleasing white audiences, it's pleasing black audiences, too. The problem lies in that if you are a black performer, be it actress, or singer... if your'e a Christel Kahlil or a Diana Ross, you are a "Sell-out" or your'e not "black enough". The above statement from SFK says it all:

"Well, in the case of The Supremes, the "not black enough" backlash was warranted because that's exactly what the folks at Motown were going for"

My point is perfectly made by that. God forbid black women would be able to sing pop music. They must sing Soul, Gospel, Rap, Hip Hop, or Jazz... It goes to show that black women in the entertainment industry don't need white people to put them in a box, their own do a perfectly good job of that. Instead, a person should be PROUD that women of color have conquered such a genre that was previously all white. And even more recently, look at how Whitney Houston got booed at the Soul train awards. Once again, putting your own people in a box. Nobody gets any damn where unless you GOT EACH OTHER'S BACK. So judge based only on talent (Or in Christel's case, lack of), not on "blackness". What's wrong with being PROUD that Lily Winters is part of a new generation that has shed the shackles of having to "keep with your own kind" and she has primarily white friends and lovers. IT's where the world is going.... eventually we'll ALL be Christel's color, in about 3 or 400 years.

Edited October 10, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

I understand it perfectly well, as one of these black women in the entertainment industry is a good friend of mine, and we've talked about the issue plenty good. It's not a matter of pleasing white audiences, it's pleasing black audiences, too. The problem lies in that if you are a black performer, be it actress, or singer... if your'e a Christel Kahlil or a Diana Ross, you are a "Sell-out" or your'e not "black enough". The above statement from SFK says it all:

"Well, in the case of The Supremes, the "not black enough" backlash was warranted because that's exactly what the folks at Motown were going for"

My point is perfectly made by that. God forbid black women would be able to sing pop music. They must sing Soul, Gospel, Rap, Hip Hop, or Jazz... It goes to show that black women in the entertainment industry don't need white people to put them in a box, their own do a perfectly good job of that. Instead, a person should be PROUD that women of color have conquered such a genre that was previously all white. And even more recently, look at how Whitney Houston got booed at the Soul train awards. Once again, putting your own people in a box. Nobody gets any damn where unless you GOT EACH OTHER'S BACK. So judge based only on talent (Or in Christel's case, lack of), not on "blackness". What's wrong with being PROUD that Lily Winters is part of a new generation that has shed the shackles of having to "keep with your own kind" and she has primarily white friends and lovers. IT's where the world is going.... eventually we'll ALL be Christel's color, in about 3 or 400 years.

Nooooo! Not the "I have black friend..." speech!

I'm sorry, but it doesn't work that way. You can't form these conclusions based on "a good black friend" or a sampling of a few people, or charts. Black criticism is not that simplistic, nor is it out to be that complicated. Black audience will always hold critique on POC on tv- another interlocking into our personalities- and we don't always agree. Diana Ross is an icon in the black community, as are the Supremes, and their contributions to black entertainment are well documented regardless of the people who have criticized them and your friend's theories about their success in the community.

"Got each other's backs"- really? seriously? SO we should just throw critique out and just support any black face that shows up on tv, otherwise tptb are going to assume we're different and can't decide on anything ourselves and stop writing for our characters. If only we could get each other's backs these shows would start writing and hiring more POC.

I get that you're trying to make sense of what's happening in the black entertainment community but the conclusions you're coming to are so false, I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. "Shed the shackles" put on by whom? Well can I ask you this- can Billy shed some shackles? Adam? Can the entire new generation of Y&R be bi-racial. Hell, can all soaps do open casting call because I'm all for shedding some shackles. Why stop at Lily? (please don't answer that)

And black women can and do sing pop music- maybe you don't listen to them or buy their albums. You're in no position to tell black people how we should feel or what to think.

Well, I can think of a couple. Kevin/Adam, Ashley/Amber, Amber/Jack, Cane/Victor, Adam/Jill.

I'm confused... what is this list evidence of, exactly?

I can't speak for Mo, but when I read that post, I didn't take it to mean that Lily wasn't in touch because she didn't have a 'fat ass' to roll across the stage, or because of her skin color, or because she can't/choose not to roll her neck. MOST of us have family members of every hue. Lily has been almost completely segregated from the Winters family and has nothing to do with anyone who is African-American under any circumstances.

Edited October 10, 200916 yr by NorrthCafe

I'm confused... what is this list evidence of, exactly?

I can't speak for Mo, but when I read that post, I didn't take it to mean that Lily wasn't in touch because she didn't have a 'fat ass' to roll across the stage, or because of her skin color, or because she can't/choose not to roll her neck. MOST of us have family members of every hue. Lily has been almost completely segregated from the Winters family and has nothing to do with anyone who is African-American under any circumstances.

But I thought that's what everyone wanted? You wanted the Winters family to not be in their own little "box" and interact with the rest of the cast. They do this with Lily, and then she's raked over the coles for it. So let me try to get this straight.... You want the dark skinned characters to interact with the white cast, and you want the light skinned character to interact with the black cast? Does that pretty much sum it up?

Edited October 10, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

"Got each other's backs"- really? seriously? SO we should just throw critique out and just support any black face that shows up on tv

Defiantely not. Just don't base the critique on whether the performer is "black enough" to pass muster. Base it only on performance.

I get that you're trying to make sense of what's happening in the black entertainment community but the conclusions you're coming to are so false, I don't know whether to laugh or to cry. "Shed the shackles" put on by whom?

Put on by yourselves.

But I thought that's what everyone wanted? You wanted the Winters family to not be in their own little "box" and interact with the rest of the cast. They do this with Lily, and then she's raked over the coles for it. So let me try to get this straight.... You want the dark skinned characters to interact with the white cast, and you want the light skinned character to interact with the black cast? Does that pretty much sum it up?

THAT IS NOT WHAT ANYONE IS SAYING IN THIS THREAD!

Most black people, when they are watching a TV show with a character that features, them, want to be portrayed accurately and realistically. They want this portrayed via the writing and the acting.

Yes, there is a stigma attached to lighter skinned actors by a majority of the black audience. No one is refuting this at all! We're not saying someone should darken their skin to fit into what is considered a "black role."

But what executives and casting directors need to be more aware of is how badly this comes off to their black viewing audience. Regardless of how one feels about Davetta(whether she was good in the role of Lily or not), her being fired for Christel screams of racism to someone looking at this. It may not have been the way it went down, but this is the way it looks to them.

And ontop of that "racism" by the people in charge, Christel isn't a decent actress that can carry the material.

Black actors have been turned away from major roles for years by executives and casting agents that they are "too black." Did you read the "brown paper bag" theory NorrthCafe pointed out?

Have you been reading any of this? Of course not, because, AGAIN, you are cherrypicking what you WANT to read.

Defiantely not. Just don't base the critique on whether the performer is "black enough" to pass muster. Base it only on performance.

This is easy for you to say. It may be easy for some black people to do. But not for many. And for valid reasons.

Put on by yourselves.

Now that was a personal attack on a group of people that, yet again, you have displayed your superficial knowledge of.

The majority of black people don't think of themselves as being "shackled" or "still in slavery" by white people. You are, yet again, missing the issue and adding things to the discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with what the collective "we" in this thread are trying to say.

I don't think it's wrong for black people to ask, "Why isn't there someone like me on TV?" I'm sure you've seen your fair share of gays and even Midwesterners that have been unfairly portrayed or that are played by people who don't have authentic accents or clothing or looks.

THAT IS NOT WHAT ANYONE IS SAYING IN THIS THREAD!

GOOD MERCY! I don't even drink and even *I* started to wonder if I'd had a few too many! Thank you for making realize that it wasn't just me!

Alphanguy, with all due respect, the stereotypical portrayals of African-Americans you've presented are NOT what anyone has asked for. Christel Khalil's complexion is darker than mine. I would never (not EVER) say that Lily isn't 'black enough' because of the character's (actor's) complexion. You read a comment stating that Lily wasn't in touch with her 'black side' and assumed it meant fans don't like her because they (we) think she doesn't look black enough.

As for my comments, I didn't say that I wanted people associating BECAUSE of their skin color. I also don't want them segregated because of it and that the sort of segregation we see with minority characters doesn't happen with non-minority characters.

If not wanting the Winters in a 'box' means that I want the cast more fully integrated? CHECK. That's not a bad thing in my book.

The majority of black people don't think of themselves as being "shackled" or "still in slavery" by white people. You are, yet again, missing the issue and adding things to the discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with what the collective "we" in this thread are trying to say.

You aren't understanding what I was trying to say. I said nothing about black people feeling they were still shackled by white people. I was saying that the stigma against light skinned people that you, yourself admitted exists.... shouldn't be THERE. That's what I meant by "Shackling yourselves", stigma from one segment of black society against another is "shackling each other". And for racists who want to keep black people in their place, there's a little thing called "divide and conquer". Think about it. When black folks are fighting amongst themselves, it's easier to keep them in check according to some people in this world. One should NOT play into their hands. And Northcafe... I understand you don't share that "not black enough" opinion... but there have been MANY on this board that do, and they know who they are.

Edited October 11, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

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