Guiding Light Discussion Thread

[Paul Raven]

Joan Collins would not have come cheap. She is a woman who knows her worth.

But CBS/P&G approved it. Even at that point I'm sure GL was not a money making machine. Those $$$ would have been better spent elsewhere. Was their any ratings bump when La Collins arrived?

[dc11786]

I started watching in 1998. I started middle school and got home from school around 2:45 so I could either choose ¨Guiding Light" or ¨General Hospital." The episodes I taste tested were on the same day.  On GH, Brenda and her mother were driving over a cliff. On GL, Cassie learned that she was in disbelief that she was pregnant with Hartś baby. The GL situation seemed more compelling. Most of middle school I watched GL, but I think I dipped a bit in high school (if I recall, SoapNet was airing early 80s ¨Ryan´s Hope¨ in 2002 and I found that more consistently compelling). I thought 2004 of ¨Guiding Light¨ was strong, but I associate that with a very specific point in my life. I thought Wheeler initially made the show very compelling.

I loved a lot of the family scenes and the approach to the material. I loved the warehouse bombing storyline. I thought the staging of ¨Romeo & Juliet" was intriguing. I liked Olivia manipulating the Spauldings by first lying that Emma was dead and then using her mere presence to manipulate them. I found the daily episodes the most compelling in my viewing years. I remember there was a scene where Olivia crashes Bill Lewis' bachelor party to Daniel Beddingfield´s ¨James Dean¨ because Olivia learned Bill had secretly been acquiring Spaulding stock during the SEC investigation. This was playing out with Danny and Jeffrey staging a warehouse bombing that would lead to Eden´s death. While Eden´s death was faked, a curious Michelle went to investigate and got caught up in the explosion. There was a scene with Danny in the hotel room telling someone that he was finally free and able to live happily ever after wiht Michelle while a siren blared in the background that was going off to the bombing to deal with Michelleś injuries. There was a very brief story where the younger set participated in a contest where they could earn a job at Spaulding clearly inspired by ¨The Apprentice.¨ There was a scene where Tammy, knowing she was losing, decided to prance around in her bathing suit for a car wash which pissed off Lizzie. Meanwhile, Sandy was lusting after Marina, his brother´s girlfriend. Phillip had returned and was looking to make life hell for Olivia. There was a very silly set of scenes where Phillip made Olivia wear a red dress to some sort of gala event, where I think they revealed that Alexandra had been Brad Green´s contact at Spaulding for the drug ring. I think that transition period (March-July 2004) was just remarkable. 

Early Kriezman was enjoyable as well. Dinah was impersonating Cassie throughout Europe leading to Dinah´s return to Springfield, which caused tension in Blake and Ross' marriage. The end of Roger story was enjoyable. The impersonation story was one of my favorite stories with JB arriving, Sandy saving Tammy from being hit by a car, Tammy and Jonathan growing closer, the confession by Sandy that Jonathan was really his son, and the realization how twisted Jonathan was by deflowering his own cousin to purposefully hurt Reva, who had taken Tammy in briefly earlier in the year after Tammy was embarassed by her own crush on Edmund. 

By January, 2005, I could feel the switch. I know some credit it to Lorraine Broderickś departure (she had been working as a breakdown writer I believe). There was just a change. The first set of stories Kriezman had planned were wrapping up and the next set were terrible. I watched a bit from February until April intermittenly. I think May, 2005, was the last solid month. Once they revealed Phillip was alive, a storyline we were suppose to invest in, I was pretty sure the show was done. I saw some episodes in July. The last episode I remember watching in any sort of series of episodes had Reva holding Nate/Alfred hostage and really giving him hell about what he had done to her son with Zimmer playing both the angry, the pain, and the love for Jonathan all at once. It was a strong scene, but I knew we weren going anywhere. 

I saw some episodes here and there. I tried to watch around February, 2009 when Jill Lorie Hurst was writing and she was getting a lot of praise. I watched the episode where Coop (a half-baked character at best) died, which was incredibly strong and then ended with Buzz crying over some totally inappropriate song. I´m not even sure I watched much of the final episodes. I did tune in for the finale. 

[GLATWT88]

No, there was no change at all. By the 2000s stunt casting wasn't going to save a soap. Even two years later when Joan Van Ark joined YR, it didn't make a dent. 

I agree. Somewhere around 2005 things just changed. A lot of familiar faces would leave and the show just felt different. 

The end was inevitable. The numbers just weren't there and they weren't coming back, but maybe the should have let the show wrap up with a bit more dignity.

[dc11786]

The argument made was that Jerry ver Dorn was available because he had been put on recurring due to the budget issues. You are absolutely right though, it wasn´t Zimmer´s fault, but that was how it was spun. 

Just like Wheeler should have fired Zimmer if that was the route she wanted to go, Wheeler should have recast Ed Bauer. Ed´s presence was needed for other stories that were playing out as well. There was an emotional affair brewing between Rick Bauer and Beth Raines that came to a climax in January, 2005, and it couldn´t go much farther because a lot of the drama came form Ed and Lillian seeing their children repeat their mistakes. Also, Michelle was still suffering amnesia and was about to become engaged to Tony. 

I had forgotten about Mary Beth Evans. I think Kimberlin Brown played Paige on a recurring basis, and they wanted to make the role contract. I was watching ¨One Life to Live" at this point because I was curious about what Dena Higley was doing (I thought her work the first time at ¨Days of our Lives" had been so bland, but was intrigued by the Daniel Coulson stuff). I think Mary Beth Evans was offered the role when Brown left and Cady Huffman came on. I remember they only signed Huffman for six months. Wasn´t August, 2005, about the time that Nora went into the coma? Now the six month contract makes more sense. Anyway, I think Crystal Chappell was up for the role in late 2005 when they were Huffman´s contract was up. Valentini, I believe, wanted Chappell. Beth Chamberlain had supposedly also auditioned for the part. 

Typically, I wasn´t impressed with Beth Chamberlin. Under Raunch her material tended to be weak. The Lorlei story was bad. I think Chamberlin did some of her stronger work on recurring.  

Collins' run was cut short because of the turn over in executive producers. Raunch hired Collins with the understanding that Collins' would have needed time off to promote the book she was releasing. I suspect Collins´ took the job thinking it would give her additional exposure, even though she didn´t need it. Collins was suppose to be on for about six months, but, when Raunch left, Mary-Ann Dwyer Dobbins was a brief interim EP, not even sure if she was credited, wouldn´t release Collins for her book tour appearances so she left. I want to say that John Conboy´s first episode or one of his first episodes was Marj Dusayś first episode. 

[Contessa Donatella]

That's one of two prevailing fan opinions. The other one is that Ellen gave us the show for 4 more years than we would have had it. Personally, I would have hated ending at the end of ConWest. It would have been going out on an unpleasant whimper. 

[dc11786]

The year was very disjointed. The stories just petered out. One of the big stories in the fall of 2005 was the baby switch (Hope Bauer was passed off as Cassie and Edmundś child). I remember because the first episode of the audio only version that were put online was Michelle coming out of the car accident when her baby was stolen. Then, everyone was gone. Stewart, St. Alban, and MacDonald were all fired. Laura Wright jumped ship to ¨General Hospital.¨ Daniel Cosgrove had played a supporting role in the story and he also jumped ship. This left just Cassie and Olivia who were then positioned into stories that didn work (Cassie/Josh and Olivia / Buzz / Frank). 

The show became incredibly focused on the love story of Tammy and Jonathan, which was just poorly written. Jonathan would do truly terrible things that hurt Tammy, like having Sandy arrested at the church on Sandy and Tammyś wedding day, and Jonathan was still the hero. Michelle Ray Smith was added as Ava. Then, overnight, Sandy was batshit crazy because they needed a villain for Tammy/Jonathan. I think Sandy´s demise was a repeat of Tony Santos' end a year earlier but only Sandy was more of a psychotic than Tony was. 

[Contessa Donatella]

Yes, and they were kicking themselves when they lost him. If she'd had any idea of his getting another gig she'd have played some other card. 

I'm a big fan of EW's but I don't think she was perfect. And, of course we make these criticisms with the benefit of knowing what actually did happen. All EPs make incorrect decisions in the heat of the moment. But, I agree. They needed an Ed. Being too stuck on PS was a mistake. 

Hated the ... avalanche? Water pouring. Flash flood? Whatever it was that began Lorelei which underwhelmed me. Other BethC I dug. 

Yes. Thank you for the refresher on what got balled up. 

[SheenaSoaper]

Robin Strassman should have played Alexadra Spaulding!!

[Contessa Donatella]

As far as 'druthers go as to Alexandra, I'd 'druther Jill hadn't worked Beverlee 4 days a week from early morning till 8 in the evening & had her in a story where she was interfering with Nick & Mindy & when Beverlee spoke to her about those 2 things that she had listened to Beverlee & made some alterations & Beverlee had played Alexandra all the rest of her days. 

[SoapDope]

Lee Lawson (Bea) in a 1972 ad for Whirlpool. 

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[Contessa Donatella]

I was thinking about this. Who is supposed to have spun it this way? That perspective did not come from the soap press & it was not the perspective of the execs themselves. 

And I just wanted to say one more thing about accepting the general pay cut or not. Yes, it's true baht some people accepted it & then later, short time or medium time, moved on. A lot of upheaval was underway & some people were going to leave, quite naturally. It was still better for morale for them to accept than not. 

And another example of unselfishness is Martha Byrne who voluntarily took a pay cut one year simply because she knew the show was in trouble. (ATWT not GL)

[MichaelGL]

I've always believed end of 2002/start of 2003 was a turning point for the show, and had any other writer followed Taggart/Culliton's plans we would've seen a much more rejuvenated GL in '03 especially regarding the Spaulding's. The Spaulding drama with Alex vs Alan, I can't help but to believe that Taggart/Culliton were planning on bringing back A-M to battle it out for Spaulding (perhaps siding with Alan since Phillip was no longer the favored son). I also recall a brief discussion about Blake wanting to get in the heat of things by wanting to jump back into the corporate world at Spaulding. There was also some of those threads previously set up during the Ex-Wives club such as Alex blackmailing Mindy, that may have been picked up again in the following year.

However Conboy/Weston totally squandered all of that. The show would get another chance when Kreizman/Wheeler first start out, and with the Roger Thorpe death storyline, but again, much of the potential is wasted. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by MichaelGL

[TEdgeofNight]

Ellen Wheeler was DEATH to GL. She was the most inept EP, ever! She had no clue what an EP should do. Peapack??? Peapack was ridiculous. Dumb idea that got GL cancelled. 

[dc11786]

The online fans definitely leaned into that angle. This was also nearly twenty years ago. Was Nelson Branco in charge of TV Guide Canada´s Soaps section at the time? I feel like he may have as well, but I honestly don´t remember when he became a thing. 

I think your characterization of selfishness/unselfishness though demonstrates the mindset that was prevalent at the time that led people to blame Zimmer. How was it Kim Zimmer´s, and the rest of the cast, responsibility to make up for P&G mismanagement of the show? The only morale issue is that Wheeler allowed Zimmer to stay on after refusing the paycut. I like Zimmer, but it was Wheeler´s decision, not Zimmer´s, that led to the show having to drop people.  

Also, given how Martha Byrne departed ¨As the World Turns," her unselfish decision may have been made because she knew she would be out of a job.  

@MichaelGL I respect your opinion. I remember having this discussion with you several times over the years, and possibly even when these events were playing out. I think the plans Taggart/Culliton had developed for the Spauldings was definitely stronger than the angle Weston took them in. The problem I always have is I always seemed to find myself catching that period at it´s worst moments: Cassie stripping for Danny, Marah yelling for Tony to rape her, etc. I also remember the show just being very energy-less in many places. I remember tuning in for Joan Collins' arrival and being in utter shock by how boring the show was. To be fair, I think Culliton only was added in early September, but Taggart had been working on the show, I think, since February supposedly rewriting Lucky Gold´s material or working with him. 

In some ways, I´m curious what the fan reaction would have been to the original outcomes of the stories left behind. Jonathan as the stalker would have provided Reva conflict (as he did a year later), but ultimately, where would that have gone? The younger set was a mixed bag. Tony and Marah weren´t good. Ben and Marina had a following, but I felt not enough work had been done (or if had I missed it) to undo the damage that had already been done to both characters with Marina accusing Gus of molesting her and Ben agreeing to deflower Marah as part of a bet. I imagine the younger set would have been opened up a bit more since they had dumped a bunch of the younger people in 2002 as I recall the unmemorable Catalina Quesada Santos and  Romeo Jones, who I only remember because he was Pamela Murphy´s son who´s early birth prevented her from airing in the final episodes of ¨Bright Promise.¨

Also, Gus´ parentage wasn´t going to end in a satsifactory conclusion as he really should have been Selina and Miguel Santos based on the original 2001 setup. I think it was rumored that Gus was going to Alan and Rita´s son, but I think that outcome would have produced a lot of the same issues that came up with Alan and Lucia as his parents. 

There were things I definitely liked. Bill and Michelle´s pairing worked well. I thought the scene where Michelle had a bad reaction to Ed wanting Holly to help him babysit Robbie was incredibly well done and led to a nice moment between Holly and Ed. I thought the stalker storyline gave the show some general suspense and intrigue which had been missing. Overall, I remember thinking late December, when Conboy started, until late February, when Taggart and Culliton´s work was done airing, was very strong, but I didn´t get the sense that this was going to be sustainable, but I could be wrong.  

I found Ellen Weston´s work disjointed, but not as miserable others. I could enjoy most of the episode, but really would have no strong attachment to the stories being told. I remember she gave an interview where she took a lot of the story direction ideas from the energy she got from the actors. Matt Bomer gave off an intensity that I could see would have inspired the serial killer angle (not that I support the decision). Similarly, I remember feeling that Marj Dusay was still a bit manic in some of her performances early on as she was recently off playing the nutty Vanessa on ¨All My Children." I could see why Weston made her Reva´s stalker. Again, not a decision I agree with, but one I understood. I thought some of the angles approached were intriguing. The characterization shifted in ways that I didn´t mind (Harley deciding she wanted to focus on being a mother rather than her career as a cop, Josh being an overbearing baseball dad), but I could see why people didn´t enjoy it. I thought they were both elements that hadn´t been done a lot on soaps so I was curious to see how they played out. Jeffrey was trash. I felt incredibly sorry for Troy Kurtis, who was greener than Marty West. 

To be fair, most of the Weston material I really liked was under Wheeler, which supposedly was being doctored by different people depending on the rumor (Kriezman was said to be one of the people but seemed unlikely based on later work). The way most people feel about late 2002-early 2003, I feel about spring 2004 - early 2005. 

Kriezman needed to be paired with a strong co-headwriter than Donna Swajeski. Someone who could have made the day to day plotting more entertaining and kept some of his clear biases (i.e. Jonathan) in check. He occasionally had intriguing ideas, had decent filler domestic stuff, but no real sense of how to make the daily plotting work. Given what ¨Days of our Lives" had done to the veteran cast in 2003-2004, Wheeler should have known that the show could have survived post-Reva. Also, they needed to be realistic about what the story parameters were and stopped building entire stories for people on recurring. 

[TEdgeofNight]

I will forever blame Ellen Wheeler for killing GL. Peapack? WTF was the show killer thinking??? Thank GOD Wheeler never got her hands on another soap!