39 minutes ago, GL Oldtimer said:

But in soaps, especially in the years that I watched, I always felt like the writers made the victim be the key to the perpetrator's redemption.

That's one of the reasons they lost a lot of their audience. 

I totally get liking problematic characters. I like many myself. But there's a red line. Making the victim responsible for the perpetrator's subsequent behavior and putting them in a romance with the person who raped them is gross. 

Roger didn't just hurt Holly, he was a serial rapist and a sociopath who committed many violent crimes. 

The worst part is, Roger NEVER paid for his crimes. At most he spent a night in jail when he was first arrested, while two of his victims--Holly and Alan (yes, this is one time Alan was a victim; blackmail is a serious crime)--ended up in prison for things connected to him.

I'm REALLY glad GL pulled back from a Holly/Roger romance because if they hadn't, it would have tarnished the legacy of the groundbreaking story they did in the first place.

 

21 hours ago, Speed Racer said:

Well, Soaplovers and PJ, I am going to disagree with you both to an extent regarding  a perceived sterile and repressed take on early 1990s GL.

Why?

Note that during the early 1990s, a sizeable portion of the show's plot protagonists were shorter-term, intentionally disposable characters against whom the "contract" characters responded to.  That laundry list included:  Rae Rooney, Gary Swanson, Daniel St John, Jean Wetherill, the Vizinni mobster family, the guy who tried to rape Vanessa, Vinny Morrison.

All of them moved plot.  Some quite significantly.

There are significant advantages in having bit players move plot.  Smart scribes can better protect the integrity of long-term characters through the use of short-term movers and shakers.  Additionally, short-term invaders of the landscape can impact any character significantly (even Roger or Alexandra, say) as the invaders might be total unknowns to all.  And, even the bittiest of bit players can have significance.  Think Elvis, Bridget's brief boyfriend.

My take?  I would agree that early 1990s GL may have been somewhat plot-sterile where "contract" characters are concerned.  But the show overall being sterile?  No way.  Not even close.  I was fascinated, easily four days a week.  

 

I think I was more focused on the word "repressed". As in, everything is so super serious, and the minute anyone strays from the straight and narrow, there's bad things happening and consequences. With Vanessa, after Billy jilts her, she can't have some hot little affair. Nope, she sleeps with one of Billy's clients and not only does he immediately start threatening to go after custody, Henry is scowling at her and Bill's angry because he knows she's going out. And then she's nearly raped and drifts into a dull and listless relationship with Fletcher, who is practically proposing marriage a week after the trial ends. 

Yes, it's beautifully written and Vanessa's POV is front and center about how she's got tons of responsibility and she has to work twice as hard to get the same respect her male colleagues do. Not that there aren't consequences for Billy because of his drinking, but no one really disapproves of his relationship with Nadine. They acknowledge he's free to screw whoever he wants. 

Obviously, story is built on actions and consequences, but there wasn't a lot of fun times sometimes. Honestly, I revere Marland, and Curlee's stock has risen in my eyes since rewatching '89-'93. (I honestly believe that Vanessa gets a soft reboot largely in part to Curlee, who had been there in the early '80's and knew Vanessa and Billy inside and out.) But there were times his ATWT was dark, and while I can't recall Curlee's GL being as dark, there were times it drifted in that direction.

I can appreciate short-term characters and the spark they give to storyline. But Jenna wasn't intended to have her arc and leave---they kept giving her silly story after silly story. 

@P.J.   FH said once (SOD?)  that she was offered the role of Eve Guthrie which was contract, but took the 'short-term' role of Jenna instead because it was more interesting.

@alwaysAMC  Re: Nola.  Nola's movie fantasies were charming delight in the 80s under Marland, but just came off as sad as an older woman in the 1990s.  In regards to Trish, she was the first Lewis introduced, followed by Josh (1981?).  Created by Doug Marland, Pam Long added the rest in 1983 and made them explicitly southern.  In addition to Ross, she was involved with Alan.  

The Mindy at the funeral is Kimberly Simms, the second Mindy- the one who played out the affair with Roger.  Future Mindy cameos would be by Krista Tesreau, Mindy #1.

 

Edited August 28Aug 28 by Spoon

6 hours ago, Spoon said:

 

@alwaysAMC  Re: Nola.  Nola's movie fantasies were charming delight in the 80s under Marland, but just came off as sad as an older woman in the 1990s.  In regards to Trish, she was the first Lewis introduced, followed by Josh (1981?).  Created by Doug Marland, Pam Long added the rest in 1983 and made them explicitly southern.  In addition to Ross, she was involved with Alan.  

The Mindy at the funeral is Kimberly Simms, the second Mindy- the one who played out the affair with Roger.  Future Mindy cameos would be by Krista Tesreau, Mindy #1.

 

Thank you, @Spoon!

I've been wondering what fans thought of these few things when the show was airing back in 1997:

1. How did fans feel about Nola suddenly becoming a sad, desperate stalker? For me, I'm at least thankful Nola got a storyline, which she hasn't really had like this since she came back in 1995. It also sort of makes sense because she's lonely. But the way it happened abruptly and the stalker aspect where she's ripping up photos is a little ridiculous to me.

2. How popular were Dinah/Hart back then? If fans loved them, did they hate Cassie? I was curious how Cassie was generally received in the beginning.

3. Jesse having Maureen's heart - were fans just outraged that 1) a newbie heartthrob had it and 2) it was her daughter's love interest? Did fans think it was cute or disgusting? I'm on the fence of 'that's weird' and 'that's cute', but I didn't know Maureen. If fans hated it, was it at least a consolation that Maureen came back to be involved so often in Michelle's visions? 

9 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

1. How did fans feel about Nola suddenly becoming a sad, desperate stalker? For me, I'm at least thankful Nola got a storyline, which she hasn't really had like this since she came back in 1995. It also sort of makes sense because she's lonely. But the way it happened abruptly and the stalker aspect where she's ripping up photos is a little ridiculous to me.

It seems to me no writer besides Marland knew how to write this character. The heart of Nola's character was wanting to be the star of her own movie. If you remember Opal on AMC, she also was very quirky like Nola and also had high aspirations. It was a GENIUS move by AMC to pair her with Palmer, who was filthy rich but brought up in similar circumstances to Opal. 

Nola needed something like that. To fulfill her desire to live life large, but with someone who would understand her origins. OR, as mentioned before by some of us, she could have found a way to harness her rich fantasy life so she could achieve fame and fortune--like becoming a romance writer.

24 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

2. How popular were Dinah/Hart back then? If fans loved them, did they hate Cassie? I was curious how Cassie was generally received in the beginning.

I don't think anyone loved anyone in this triangle. In fact, I seem to recall soap critics drubbing this storyline. 

26 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

3. Jesse having Maureen's heart - were fans just outraged that 1) a newbie heartthrob had it and 2) it was her daughter's love interest? Did fans think it was cute or disgusting? I'm on the fence of 'that's weird' and 'that's cute', but I didn't know Maureen. If fans hated it, was it at least a consolation that Maureen came back to be involved so often in Michelle's visions? 

I think there was a movie that came out around this time with a similar theme? Never understood the appeal.

My mom thought Jesse was cute. 😁

For me, Maureen's appearances made me mad all over again that they killed her off.

Since we've been discussing Roger and Holly, I have a questions for those of you that have a lot more knowledge about these things than I do. 

I wasn't old enough to watch the show in the 1970s, so I didn't see any of their groundbreaking storylines play out. 

When the characters returned in the late 1980s, was there a push by the fans to reunite them as a couple? Were they a popular pairing with fans in the 1990s? 

Annette

 

3 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

How did fans feel about Nola suddenly becoming a sad, desperate stalker?

I can't speak for all fans, but I know I hated it, especially because it didn't make sense for Nola to become so obsessed over someone like Buzz.  He wasn't her type.  And even in her darkest moments, when she was messing with Morgan's head and letting Kelly and everyone else believe he was her baby daddy, she never crossed the line into outright stalking him.

6 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

Thank you, @Spoon!

I've been wondering what fans thought of these few things when the show was airing back in 1997:

1. How did fans feel about Nola suddenly becoming a sad, desperate stalker? For me, I'm at least thankful Nola got a storyline, which she hasn't really had like this since she came back in 1995. It also sort of makes sense because she's lonely. But the way it happened abruptly and the stalker aspect where she's ripping up photos is a little ridiculous to me.

2. How popular were Dinah/Hart back then? If fans loved them, did they hate Cassie? I was curious how Cassie was generally received in the beginning.

3. Jesse having Maureen's heart - were fans just outraged that 1) a newbie heartthrob had it and 2) it was her daughter's love interest? Did fans think it was cute or disgusting? I'm on the fence of 'that's weird' and 'that's cute', but I didn't know Maureen. If fans hated it, was it at least a consolation that Maureen came back to be involved so often in Michelle's visions? 

1. i knew Nola was the stalker the minute she showed up hanging out at the lunch counter in Wheels & Meals Diner...a place she never frequented before. The whole storyline was a joke...why GL wrote that Buzz was some irresisitable hearthrob I will never know. He was a ill tempered loudmouthed lout.

2. Never warmed to Cassie. To self righteous and it was just plain silly that Sarah too had a secret child.

3.  Unfortunately that left zero wiggle room for Maureen ever coming back. Once you start passing out body parts even the most talented writer or producer could never ever be able to figure a way to fix it once the fan backlash started. Painted into a corner.

3 hours ago, GL Oldtimer said:

Since we've been discussing Roger and Holly, I have a questions for those of you that have a lot more knowledge about these things than I do. 

I wasn't old enough to watch the show in the 1970s, so I didn't see any of their groundbreaking storylines play out. 

When the characters returned in the late 1980s, was there a push by the fans to reunite them as a couple? Were they a popular pairing with fans in the 1990s? 

Annette

 

It was still pre-internet so its hard to say what everyone was feeling at home however anyone rooting for them would have gotten their first sign of hope when they were in Acapulco together and were getting along. Everything that came after started there.

Marland's Nola had an underlying foundation of melancholy and discontent, which is displayed by her love of old movies and her active fantasy life.  Both of those tools were her way to escape from her humdrum boring life living at the Boarding House.  It also explained her love of gossip, which she utilized in her first few months in regards to Holly, who she blamed partly for Roger hiding out at the boarding house disguised as the professor.

She viewed Kelly as the embodiment of her fantasies of the perfect man, that was cultivated by  her constant love and admiration of classic movies.  She didn't so much as love Kelly, but fetishized him... and exposure by Kelly in that landmark episode wasn't so much being exposed as a schemer... but it broke through her delusional fantasy that Kelly was her perfect man.

While the original plan was for Kelly/Nola to be endgame.. I'm glad that Marland switched gears when he saw how good Nola and Quint were as a couple.   He was mysterious, lived in a gothic residence, and was a movie bought to life.... all which Nola had been seeking.

Long's Nola from mid 1983 to spring 1985 was an adjustment to her character... but I often thought that she understood Nola 2nd best after Marland.   Her Nola was curious and investigated the fishing trip mystery... but the real life pregnancy of Lisa Brown shifted the character since the pregnancy was written into the show.  Nola was sidelined from seeing the fishing mystery since she was pregnant... and she was not able to completely by pro-active for the first half of 1984 due to pregnancy (hence her fantasies kind of coming back because she was stuck in limbo).

Mid 1984 to late 1984 was partly due to being sidelined by the new baby, adjusting to being a wife, trying to fit into the wealthy world, and having a Christmas adventure in late 1984.  The Nolaobics arc seemed to have been cut short due to Lisa Brown opting to leave the show... so who knows if she would have figured into whatever plans the writers had for the 2nd of 1985 (the Infinity story).

Nola 1995-1997 was a Nola that had traveled with her husband, been cheated on by him, and had to return to Springfield with her tail between her legs so she was more sad and morose.  Even if her stalking was due to desperation at trying to escape her new existence... Buzz Cooper was not the type of guy that she gone for in her younger years nor would provide her with the excitement and mystery she still craved.

 

19 hours ago, Spoon said:

@P.J.   FH said once (SOD?)  that she was offered the role of Eve Guthrie which was contract, but took the 'short-term' role of Jenna instead because it was more interesting.

@alwaysAMC  Re: Nola.  Nola's movie fantasies were charming delight in the 80s under Marland, but just came off as sad as an older woman in the 1990s.  In regards to Trish, she was the first Lewis introduced, followed by Josh (1981?).  Created by Doug Marland, Pam Long added the rest in 1983 and made them explicitly southern.  In addition to Ross, she was involved with Alan.  

The Mindy at the funeral is Kimberly Simms, the second Mindy- the one who played out the affair with Roger.  Future Mindy cameos would be by Krista Tesreau, Mindy #1.

Any role would've been more interesting than Eve Guthrie. I'm surprised they would've offered FH the role, when she seems a lot more of a glamour puss. 

Both Josh and Trish arrived in '81, Trish around June and Josh in October. Trish was also involved with Mike Bauer, although that never seemed more than going out to dinner and a few kisses.

12 hours ago, alwaysAMC said:

 

1. How did fans feel about Nola suddenly becoming a sad, desperate stalker? For me, I'm at least thankful Nola got a storyline, which she hasn't really had like this since she came back in 1995. It also sort of makes sense because she's lonely. But the way it happened abruptly and the stalker aspect where she's ripping up photos is a little ridiculous to me.

2. How popular were Dinah/Hart back then? If fans loved them, did they hate Cassie? I was curious how Cassie was generally received in the beginning.

3. Jesse having Maureen's heart - were fans just outraged that 1) a newbie heartthrob had it and 2) it was her daughter's love interest? Did fans think it was cute or disgusting? I'm on the fence of 'that's weird' and 'that's cute', but I didn't know Maureen. If fans hated it, was it at least a consolation that Maureen came back to be involved so often in Michelle's visions? 

 

1. I don't think anyone liked Nola's story. Viewers who hadn't watched her first run wouldn't have understood why she had been so adored. Viewers who knew her were let down on multiple levels--no Quint, no kids, and a depressing story. I don't even think she spars with Vanessa that much, and newer viewers wouldn't have understood that dynamic either, or how much Vanessa had changed since those days.

2. I think I recall Dinah/Hart/Cassie dividing the viewers. Dinah and Hart had been through a lot and just kind of thrown away for the flavor of the month Cassie. I'm not sure anyone really saw Hart as a prize, but Bridget had been a fan favorite, and pushed along into the role of also-ran for Dinah/Hart. Then presto, in walks a leggy blonde and Hart can't drop Dinah fast enough. Being pre-internet, I'm not sure it qualified as a fan war, but it was probably was for GL. And Cassie and LW were kind of a flashpoint for fans. Dinah/Hart fans resented her, Danny/Michelle fans hated her so much that GL scrapped some kind of story for Danny/Cassie (LW and PAS had worked together on Loving/The City) and then Richard/Cassie fans became loud and vocal. (or obnoxious, depending on your POV)

3. I just remember how bad-boy wannabe Jesse was. God, what a horrible actor. 

6 hours ago, Lujack4Ever said:

anyone rooting for them would have gotten their first sign of hope when they were in Acapulco together and were getting along. 

I rushed home from school for the Acapulco episodes. It was a turning point in Roger/Holly relationship for them to confront their past. MZ should have gotten a Lead Actor nomination for those episodes.

Another key moment in Roger/Holly relationship is when Roger showed up at Holly's house and admitted that he still loved her. I think that was in late 1991 or early 1992, I can't for the life of me remember the exact time.

9 hours ago, GL Oldtimer said:

Since we've been discussing Roger and Holly, I have a questions for those of you that have a lot more knowledge about these things than I do. 

I wasn't old enough to watch the show in the 1970s, so I didn't see any of their groundbreaking storylines play out. 

When the characters returned in the late 1980s, was there a push by the fans to reunite them as a couple? Were they a popular pairing with fans in the 1990s? 

Annette

 

I remember the Roger and Holly story being very controversial. I don't think there was a "push" for them to reunite, but there were always fans who thought they should. There's no arguing that Maureen and Michael were fascinating to watch, but I don't think the story of them reuniting went over well, or ever would have no matter who wrote it.

On 8/24/2025 at 9:03 PM, Lujack4Ever said:

It could well have been. Its been so many years I don't recall exactly just that it stuck with me that the writers went there. Speaking of Vanessa and funeral services with poor writing the one that stuck out to me was the reading of Henry Chamberlain's will. The horrid version of J no dot Chamberlain actually groaned out loud saying, "Can we get on with this!" The Vanessa I knew and loved would have tore him a new one for being so disrespectful to her father instead of sitting there silently saying nothing.

All of those McTavish....at least Maeve did throw in a side eye at J.NoDot with a slice of stink in it...it's even weirder that Nola didn't tell him to sit down and shut the f*ck up like any Irish mom would..I have no idea why they thought obnoxious J. was going to be a viable character, but then later on Jonathon came on, but at least then the actor had charisma. 

I think Vanessa's funeral was one of McTavish last stands...and you could tell she not only didnt give a damn, but she wanted to put it to GL, the characters and the viewers. Wasn't this the one were Nola gave a eulogy while doing a hula hoop? Why didn't someone switch this and just have Van go into a coma and she would have to be shipped off to the Soap Opera Rest Home in Switzerland for a miracle cure. She could have gotten better and still kept it from her family (thinking she might relapse or some b.s.) and Roger could have gone to chat with her.