21 minutes ago, chrisml said:

In retrospect, it would be perfectly obvious that Zimmer would win her first Emmy based on her competition. It's again annoying to see that Lucci took up so many slots for Best Actress while other worthy nominees were overlooked and/or never nominated. As for her second Emmy win, she was also not facing much competition. She again had Lucci with ridiculous material. Marcy Walker submitting weak material (from what I remember reading, it was Eden arguing with cruz about the status of their relationship). Frances Reid submitting nothing material. Her only competition would have been Elizabeth Hubbard from ATWT.

As for her book and Ellen Wheeler, it's interesting she doesn't lay as much blame on Conboy who did a lot of damage to the show financially and behind the scenes. She also blames Ellen Wheeler for casting decisions that Conboy made. And if P&G had decided to get out of the soap business, it didn't matter who was producing. I'm not an Ellen Wheeler apologist. I think she's a fantastic actress, but a terrible EP. Zimmer's anger is misplaced and she knows it. It's easier for her to be madder at the hired gun than the corporation.

Great points.

21 minutes ago, chrisml said:

If she really cared about GL as a whole, she would know that one of the horrific things that soured people on the show was the disgusting way Michael Zaslow was treated by her fave EP Paul Rauch and MADD.

WORD. 

21 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Teens and twentysomethings do not watch soaps just for people their own ages. I never did. Advertisers know this. Execs know this. Yet they still chase the teen/young adult dollar with young characters. When they used to publish the Q ratings of soap actors, JEanne Cooper's Kay was the top actress for teen and young adult viewers. They loved her, but that didn't fit into what advertisers wanted so Q ratings were quickly phased out because the reality didn't match what the execs wanted. 

Hmm, I always heard that MTS had the highest Q ratings of ANY soap actress. 

Agree that it's ludicrous to think teens/YA only want to see people their own age. But, it was the advertisers who sold the bill of goods that one demo was more valuable than another. 

 

3 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

But, at the same time P&G fought NBC trying to keep them from killing AW.

I always assumed that AW was killed by NBC, not P&G. Weren't they were clearing the way for another soap? Passions or Sunset Beach? I don't remember which one.

5 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Me, I am one who does not think that P&G made some calculated decision that it was time to get out of the soap business.

That was the scuttlebutt, so definitely, it could have been an exaggeration. For a long time I didn't believe it. I really did not believe they would toss ATWT. It just seemed... so wrong. GL was going through so much mess and turmoil, it seemed much more inevitable, but I was sure ATWT would survive. When it happened, I assumed the story about P&G wanting out of their soap gig was true.

16 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

When soap journo & one of the editors of SOAP OPERA NOW, Michael Kape, interviewed the Daytime Destroyer, Brian Frons for the first time in 1983 he said that already he hated soaps & wanted to kill them & clear the daypart of them. Notably he canceled SFT twice, first on CBS & then on NBC. Then, he ended up at ABC. One very terrible day in April he was supposed to go forth & give a cancelation order to OLTL. He got it into his head to do AMC, also. We don't know whether to go with maximum insult & say it was a whim, or not. But, we also know that he wanted to do the same to GH & THE ONLY REASON HE DID NOT is that they did not have any show in the wings or even in development that they could put in its spot. After AMC/OLTL massacre he turned SOAPnet into ANOTHER Disney Jr.

He was and remains the Devil to me. He did so much to harm the genre. 

18 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

This is absolutely true. I was a teen when they introduced Katherine on Y&R and I LOVED HER CHARACTER! I was on her side, not Jill's, even though she was my contemporary.

When GH became so popular with college students, I think they didn't realize it was a thing for students to watch the show together at the student union or watch together in other groups (I did this with friends).

Exactly. So many teens/young adults love the older characters/the mom characters. That's why killing off Maureen was such a disaster. I don't understand why people who worked in the soap industry for decades didn't know this or didn't care. As you point out, soaps stopped becoming a communal event so soaps had to adjust with the times but they didn't. They focused on  he 18/49 demo and that was the wrong way to go. Soap viewers want consistency and GL certainly didn't provide that in its last 20 yrs.

I agree that Zimmer had every right to refuse the pay cut. They wanted to use Zimmer as a scapegoat and as an example. It also shows Zimmer was not as well liked behind the scenes if some her cast mates believed the stories. 

Wheeler's GL felt desperate even before the handheld cameras, and the hairy hands. As a viewer, that's not going to lure me back to a show. It's going to make sure I don't come back.

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

Regarding Zimmer and the paycut, my argument remains that her point is valid; opening a contractmidway through sets a precedent.

There is absolutely no question that it is a point & a point from a specific perspective. Just as the people in different industries who have taken voluntary pay cuts to do their part in trying to keep that industry alive is just as valid & relevant a point, from another perspective. There are a few things that are key. Everyone must be asked to share their part of the burden & why it's important for execs to pony up first. And, as far as is possible the burden needs to be equal.

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

The summary implies that Zimmer's out wasn't until almost a year later so maybe she was throwing around the sentiment, but I do believe she took the cut a year later.

She had a 52 week work cycle, so yes, a year before her next date came up. I never thought she took a cut at all. 

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

Also, wasn't there supposedly an attempt to lure Grant Alexander back full-time in 2005. Where was that money coming from? 

What I knew about Grant at the time does not match what some others say happened, so I tend to consider it disputed knowledge & don't get into it. But, I will say that consideration about Grant as Philip more importantly was about time on front burner. Just like Kim, he commanded a huge amount of front burner time & space. They were the top two who gobbled up way more than their share, just because it had evolved that way, maybe. When Grant was gone it gave a lot of people chances. But, there came a time when a lot of people felt he was needed back. 

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

There was a lot of cast turnover in 2005. Entire front burner storylines saw their entire cast dropped by choice or force (no one survived the baby switch other than Dinah). 

So dang much change!!!

6 minutes ago, dc11786 said:

Maybe with a stronger writer, Wheeler could have weathered the storm, but not with Kriezman and Swajeski at the helm. She made some nice adjustments when she initially arrived in March, 2004, but within the year, the potential was lost as Kriezman went into overdrive with centering the show on his toxic male avatar Tom Pelphrey's unchecked Jonathan and by replacing Danmy and Michelle with Gus and Harley as the show eating couple. 

If the lore is to be believed the show got rid of Michelle & Danny because of some really appalling fanbase wars. And, when they did so, they left something of a vacuum which GusH stepped nicely into. 

Yet, Tom Pelphrey was incredibly popular. Also Jami. And, Swajeski wrote my favorite Otalia scene, Olivia putting roses on Gus's grave, Natalia finds her there, they finally express their true feelings, in the snow, moving to the gazebo & Natalia jilts Frank & the entire Cooper family at the altar. 

To me the thing about the writers is that they had the hardest OJT of any because they had to figure out HOW TO WRITE for this new production model that was mandated by CBS. And, I assert that they did figure it out. Swajeski & Hurst are on my list of favorite writers. 

And, so many departments had such tough OJT. Sound! OY. 

42 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Something a lot of people forget is that P&G wanted to get out of the soap opera biz. (Which is why I was SHOCKED when I found out BTG is a P&G soap).

 

 

I think most of the people working on it knew how dire the situation was and that's why they agreed to pay cuts. They were trying to save their show! KZ, being in her 50s and thinking she still should be the star of the show (IMO, soaps are better when they are an ensemble) is kind of insane. Maybe she was thinking of the grand dames of the older soaps, like Mary Stuart. But they played matriarchs, and she never really wanted to play that part, she still wanted to be the romantic lead.

 

Personally, I've got a lot of doubt about how committed P&G is to BTG. If anything, daytime is a lot less profitable than it was in the late '00's. If it lasts even five years, I'd be shocked.

I'm not sure what Kim thought they could write for Reva that would've improved things. They gave her another adult child. She was still getting love interests. (Even if I hated Bradley Cole) They gave her a cancer story. The only thing in the last years that I thought was completely out of character was her agreeing to help Jon fake his and Sarah's deaths and keeping it from Lizzie.  

I mean, she wasn't getting the Maureen Garrett treatment, being reduced to playing crazy or being her child's talk to.

And about her not wanting to be a matriarch of the show---YEP. In fact I blanched when she played sweet Charita Bauer in the 70th anniversary episode. Admittedly, the entire show annoyed me anyway, but it just felt like they'd decided the "star" of the show was the only logical choice for that role.

25 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I always assumed that AW was killed by NBC, not P&G. Weren't they were clearing the way for another soap? Passions or Sunset Beach? I don't remember which one.

Your basic idea is correct. NBC wanted to kill AW to get rid of it to put a show they would own in that timeslot. (Which one? GEN?, SuBe/Beach?, PSSN? right, probably one of them, LOL!!!) And, they wanted to kill it as far back as them forcing Swajeski to write that Jake raped Marley. Then, that desire continued, of course. NBC blocked the Dobsons coming to HW AW in the spring of 1993. 

25 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

That was the scuttlebutt, so definitely, it could have been an exaggeration. For a long time I didn't believe it. I really did not believe they would toss ATWT. It just seemed... so wrong. GL was going through so much mess and turmoil, it seemed much more inevitable, but I was sure ATWT would survive. When it happened, I assumed the story about P&G wanting out of their soap gig was true.

At some point, they HAD to have come to that conclusion. 

25 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

He was and remains the Devil to me. He did so much to harm the genre. 

There are a handful of people I consider to be bonafide SoapKillers. He is one, of course, but it's telling to me that he has the specific nickname "Daytime Destroyer" & what Susan Lucci said about him in her first memoir, that he combined two of the worst qualities - arrogance & ignorance. Erica Slezak had words for him, too, and neither of them said a cross word, in general for years! Oh, and we can't forget his cameo in Santa Barbara, ... as god. If that's not hubris I do not know what is!

 

56 minutes ago, chrisml said:

In retrospect, it would be perfectly obvious that Zimmer would win her first Emmy based on her competition. It's again annoying to see that Lucci took up so many slots for Best Actress while other worthy nominees were overlooked and/or never nominated. As for her second Emmy win, she was also not facing much competition. She again had Lucci with ridiculous material. Marcy Walker submitting weak material (from what I remember reading, it was Eden arguing with cruz about the status of their relationship). Frances Reid submitting nothing material. Her only competition would have been Elizabeth Hubbard from ATWT.

. She also blames Ellen Wheeler for casting decisions that Conboy made. And if P&G had decided to get out of the soap business, it didn't matter who was producing. 

 

Teens and twentysomethings do not watch soaps just for people their own ages. I never did. Advertisers know this. Execs know this. Yet they still chase the teen/young adult dollar with young characters. When they used to publish the Q ratings of soap actors, JEanne Cooper's Kay was the top actress for teen and young adult viewers. They loved her, but that didn't fit into what advertisers wanted so Q ratings were quickly phased out because the reality didn't match what the execs wanted. 

Agree re: Lucci--god knows how many good actresses were robbed of nominations for her. (again, I apologize to AMC fans). I'm not sure Spencer wouldn't have been a sentimental favorite, having been around for so long. But Hubbard was a contender every bleepin' year. It's a crime she never won for playing Lucinda.

Or blaming it on Wheeler's age. Wheeler's only about six years younger than Kim. Sometimes these out of the box choices work---aka Pam Long, beauty queen/actress/writer  who arguably reinvigorated GL and invented characters and relationships that lasted until the end of the show.

I think if you're a teen, the teen/young adult crowd will hook you, but it's always the older crowd that reels you in. It always seemed I was interested most in the characters in their 30's-'40's. They've lived a little, made their mistakes and are still trying to figure it out. And the actors portraying them know what they're doing. Nothing is worse than painfully green actors wondering around vacantly trying to make it work.

I think P & G are only using BTG as a way to advertise their products... but aren't super involved in the day to day decisions of story/cast.

Perhaps had P & G agreed to co-produce their soaps with another company and/or network.. maybe the budgets wouldn't have been cut as drastically and the quality would have been maintained a little longer.

17 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I think P & G are only using BTG as a way to advertise their products... but aren't super involved in the day to day decisions of story/cast.

Perhaps had P & G agreed to co-produce their soaps with another company and/or network.. maybe the budgets wouldn't have been cut as drastically and the quality would have been maintained a little longer.

And, they were courted in the face of the AW cancelation: ABC, FOX, what became Paramount, what became Sony & what was for a time Viacom. ABC wanted it for themselves, not a partnership. FOX also wanted it to themselves to try out having a daytime soap. But, the others all had some kind of deal in mind. Unknown what, of course. Sony was loosely allied with them on their Soap City site which covered, Bell Y&R and B&B, ATWT and GL, AW, and DAYS of course. Plus, I mean, why didn't AMC & OLTL both drop back to half hour & then intentionally program themselves together as a block. I imagine probably leadership was too chicken to try to reinvent. 

On 6/21/2025 at 3:26 PM, alwaysAMC said:

I'm halfway through December 1996 and I can already tell a huge difference, it's back to good soap opera. 

The Roger scenes at this time are pretty sad now in hindsight as his speech starts slurring at that time as his (not-yet-diagnosed) ALS progresses.

2 hours ago, DeeVee said:

I always assumed that AW was killed by NBC, not P&G. Weren't they were clearing the way for another soap? Passions or Sunset Beach? I don't remember which one.

 

AW was pulled for Passions which NBC owned. I don't think NBC was prepared for the backlash and boycott it created causing Days and Sunset Beach's ratings to fall by good measure after. SB gone 6 months later and Passions never made any ratings significance. 

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

Personally, I've got a lot of doubt about how committed P&G is to BTG. If anything, daytime is a lot less profitable than it was in the late '00's. If it lasts even five years, I'd be shocked.

I have a feeling P&G is only "testing" this method again to advertise for Tide and Febreze (which are nauseatingly present in eps). If it fails to improve sales of these products specifically, I think P&G will be out sooner than later. 

2 hours ago, chrisml said:

In retrospect, it would be perfectly obvious that Zimmer would win her first Emmy based on her competition. It's again annoying to see that Lucci took up so many slots for Best Actress while other worthy nominees were overlooked and/or never nominated. As for her second Emmy win, she was also not facing much competition. She again had Lucci with ridiculous material. Marcy Walker submitting weak material (from what I remember reading, it was Eden arguing with cruz about the status of their relationship). Frances Reid submitting nothing material. Her only competition would have been Elizabeth Hubbard from ATWT.

 

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

Agree re: Lucci--god knows how many good actresses were robbed of nominations for her. (again, I apologize to AMC fans). I'm not sure Spencer wouldn't have been a sentimental favorite, having been around for so long. But Hubbard was a contender every bleepin' year. It's a crime she never won for playing Lucinda.

The more I think about it, I'd guess the 1985 favorite was Deidre Hall as supercouple Days was going strong. Robin Strasser won three years earlier but the 1985 nomination was during One Life to Live tanking era (from the 1980s Ratings thread One Life to Live was tanking from when Y&R moved past them for #3 in 1984 until Andrea Evans return in 1985). 

I broke down Elizabeth Hubbard losses in the As the World Turns thread but I think she had the same issues as Susan Lucci, the submissions were not so great.

As for Susan Lucci, the losing streak actually boosted her profile. Even those who never watched All My Children or daytime at all knew who she was. The losing streak also played a part in bringing an audience to the Daytime Emmy broadcasts. It's no wonder the Daytime Emmys stopped being relevant once the streak was over and it's also telling that Susan Lucci was the only Daytime Emmy winner who's win got a People cover story.

 

9 minutes ago, Melroser said:

AW was pulled for Passions which NBC owned. I don't think NBC was prepared for the backlash and boycott it created causing Days and Sunset Beach's ratings to fall by good measure after. SB gone 6 months later and Passions never made any ratings significance. 

When Susan D. Lee informed AW of their cancellation even though their ratings were higher that SuBe/Beach's she informed Spelling at that time what his deal was, which was that they would have a one-time 6 month extension in exchange for some unknown accommodation. NBC half-owned them so I'm sure it was x paying y for the rest of the term rather that however it had been. At any rate Spelling was not in any position to object. But there wasn't any issue of making a decision on the Spelling Beach soap based on ratings after July 1999. It was pre-set. 

But, yes, they couldn't believe that PSSN hadn't immediately produced amazing ratings in all demos. They were convinced that Reilly's genius would provide something no soap fan would ever believe possible, a show where it did not have to grow its audience. NBC leadership at different times was just impossible to believe they were as out of touch as they often were. 

9 minutes ago, Melroser said:

I have a feeling P&G is only "testing" this method again to advertise for Tide and Febreze (which are nauseatingly present in eps). If it fails to improve sales of these products specifically, I think P&G will be out sooner than later. 

Yes, I can see that, at least theoretically. 

58 minutes ago, Spoon said:

The Roger scenes at this time are pretty sad now in hindsight as his speech starts slurring at that time as his (not-yet-diagnosed) ALS progresses.

I was shocked rewatching. In the scenes where he's found Vanessa in Switzerland, it is painfully obvious he's having trouble with his words.

2 hours ago, chrisml said:

I agree that Zimmer had every right to refuse the pay cut. They wanted to use Zimmer as a scapegoat and as an example. It also shows Zimmer was not as well liked behind the scenes if some her cast mates believed the stories. 

I continue to be perplexed why people think this. Everyone was a free agent to make whatever decision they felt worked best for them. Every other person agreed to the voluntary pay cut. Who is it she was an example to? And, how was she a scapegoat? She did & said what she did & said to herself. No one did anything to her except make her the exact same offer they made everyone else. 

I can certainly see how Wheeler was P&G's scapegoat & sacrificial lamb. But, KZ? Maybe someone can explain it to me. 

And, of course there is no question that she had the right. I'm not aware of anyone ever who disagrees.