4 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Kim has every right to her feelings, and maybe even some valid points. But as a fan, GL's decline started way before '04. That's just the breaking point for her. And it's not professional to go and complain to your EP because (god forbid) your character isn't on "in a couple of episodes".

I don't know how she thinks Wheeler "tinkered" with the character of Reva. But good grief, every town bicycle eventually needs new tires.

The Inside the Light idea was fresh, but should've been used more sparingly. And it really was insulting to "wrap up" Ross in one. RME. Isn't she wrong about the Katrina rebuilding? They may have also shown it on the web, but there was an entire episode devoted to it, which I thought aired during sweeps, which I thought was a mistake.

God, I hated that "hairy arms" opening. HATED. 

You know i begin in a strong way at or about Conboy & Weston. So, yes, before Wheeler. I am not concerned with KZ's feelings but I completely agree that she was within her rights to say no. Beyond that we all may have a lot of opinions. And, I think it not only make sense that we do but it is right & proper that we look at what went on & why to the extent that it is known & yes, have a whole lot of opinions!!! 

What you say about Reva, a few episodes, her imagining that Wheeler somehow fooled with the character of Reva just boggles the mind. Personally I LIKED Inside the Light & in general the special Wednesday episodes. although I fully admit some were great & some, oh, not so. The home rebuilding I also liked, in general. I do not remember it being in Sweeps. If youare right about that, another bungle!!! 

 

1 hour ago, Contessa Donatella said:

And, here, is just one of the times when KZ's pov does not necessarily line up with facts.

KZ was never used as a decoy. What they did lines up with things that have happened in other industries, like the airlines. The idea is that everyone is asked at the same, or close to the same, time, to make a sacrifice, by taking a pay cut THE SAME CUT ACROSS THE BOARD, basically, the younger actors didn't actually make enough money to be treated the same, but everyone else, same. The execs took their cuts first, up front. Then they took their sad pitch to the people. Every single person except one said yes. No bullying, no pressuring, no tricks, everything up front & above board. It was known all along that KZ was the only person to say no. But, make no mistake it was not known until she did it & said it. She writes as if they knew she would do & say what she did. Nothing could be further from the truth. No one tried to make it scandalous, it was on its own. Many fans looked at the situation & thought how unselfish so many people were being & wasn't that amazing & also loyal. Not much was discussed about KZ because after all, what could you say? Technically she had the right to do what she did. Full Stop. The End. But, I do not know anyone who thought she did it for the principle of the thing. If you had suggested that, people would have laughed. People who were talking about principles were talking about Jerry, Grant, Mikey, Beth, etc. 

 

Genuinely curious how you know from the inside - do you have connections, worked in the industry, etc? Tell us your secrets!  

16 minutes ago, P.J. said:

Kim has every right to her feelings, and maybe even some valid points. But as a fan, GL's decline started way before '04. That's just the breaking point for her. And it's not professional to go and complain to your EP because (god forbid) your character isn't on "in a couple of episodes".

I don't know how she thinks Wheeler "tinkered" with the character of Reva. But good grief, every town bicycle eventually needs new tires.

The Inside the Light idea was fresh, but should've been used more sparingly. And it really was insulting to "wrap up" Ross in one. RME. Isn't she wrong about the Katrina rebuilding? They may have also shown it on the web, but there was an entire episode devoted to it, which I thought aired during sweeps, which I thought was a mistake.

God, I hated that "hairy arms" opening. HATED. 

One thing you and Kim agree on!  Love the town bike metaphor, agree!

On the Katrina thing, not sure at all, but she did call out the website where you could watch the web series (findyourlight.net), but that website is now defunct haha. 

Interesting. So when would you guys say the show really started to decline in terms of quality and budget, etc? Because the 1999 episodes I’m watching now seem like they have a pretty good budget. There is a good variety of sets, very large cast. I was wondering just how small the cast ends up getting over the next few years because I can only assume there were some cast cuts and I’m sure there were less sets. &nbsp
 

I watched it happen with Y&R more recently, and I wanna say post 2012 is when the smaller budget became more obvious on screen. There were some awful head writers around 2012 (ahem Maria Arena Bell) but the show still looked pretty good and the cast was massive. It was a shame because majority of the cast was being wasted around that time. I’ve always loved a big cast so I’m sad we no longer really have that. It seems like soaps now a days like to merge a lot of storylines together with a smaller cast and I absolutely hate it. 

4 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

If what she wrote about Ellen was true about crying, I don't blame Kim for being annoyed with that.   You're the boss... you need to keep it together.. or else you need to resign so someone competent and in control of their emotions can take over as EP. 

And Kim's statement about preferring a male EP is more typical then not for women.  I know that in the tech world, females younger then me will switch jobs in order to work for a male boss.  

Where Kim's talking about EW crying falls down, is that she cried, too, as much if not more. It was high pressure, crises regularly, when KZ marched past other doors on her way to EW's, people got upset, worried, what was Kim going to say next, some of them cried, too. They knew who they were concerned about what in the h3ll she was going to say or do & I assure you it was not that were concerned that Ellen would say or do something horrible & awful to Kim. They knew who was the one who was going to raise holy h3ll & I'm sure you know who I mean. That she likely felt she could get away with the crap she pulled on a regular basis is down to her feeling about EW being a woman & younger & fitter & that in a big way she was spoiled. It only makes sense if you know anything about the people involved. 

And, if there had been anyone else, why wouldn't P&G have picked them? My assertion all along is that neither of their two choices were competent to the task they were set & with almost no budget, no one would have been. 

If anyone was a scapegoat. it was not privileged Kim, no, it was Ellen. 

 

8 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

Genuinely curious how you know from the inside - do you have connections, worked in the industry, etc? Tell us your secrets!  

I lived in Brooklyn from very late 1998-July 2005. My life partner was the GL Editor at Digest from early 1999 to July 2005. I had the privilege to meet most of the soap press, typically I was in the Digest office 2 or 3 afternoons & then there were activities often at night. I became personal friends with various GL people. I treasure that time. I am not an insider. Never have been. It just so happens that I knew people & know some still. If you can't tell that I am telling "stuff" I'm doing this all wrong. 😉

12 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

You know i begin in a strong way at or about Conboy & Weston. So, yes, before Wheeler. I am not concerned with KZ's feelings but I completely agree that she was within her rights to say no. Beyond that we all may have a lot of opinions. And, I think it not only make sense that we do but it is right & proper that we look at what went on & why to the extent that it is known & yes, have a whole lot of opinions!!! 

What you say about Reva, a few episodes, her imagining that Wheeler somehow fooled with the character of Reva just boggles the mind. Personally I LIKED Inside the Light & in general the special Wednesday episodes. although I fully admit some were great & some, oh, not so. The home rebuilding I also liked, in general. I do not remember it being in Sweeps. If youare right about that, another bungle!!! 

 

Well, because I have to check, the Katrina episode aired 2/14/07. 

There are things I don't like about Wheeler, but the same things were happening at ATWT. I mean, I get that Kim didn't think focusing on the new/younger crowd was smart, but it's like she's forgotten that she owed the role to a EP/HW switch herself.

I wish Wheeler had done things differently, and reinvigorated the core of the show instead of bringing on a flock of ill-conceived characters, but again, that's not unusual for new EP's.

1 minute ago, P.J. said:

Well, because I have to check, the Katrina episode aired 2/14/07. 

There are things I don't like about Wheeler, but the same things were happening at ATWT. I mean, I get that Kim didn't think focusing on the new/younger crowd was smart, but it's like she's forgotten that she owed the role to a EP/HW switch herself.

I wish Wheeler had done things differently, and reinvigorated the core of the show instead of bringing on a flock of ill-conceived characters, but again, that's not unusual for new EP's.

As usual you make a number of excellent points.

And, that she programmed that in Feb. Sweeps, yes, it's another bungle. Not as egregious as moving Jerry to recurring, but it is def up there in her top 5, I'd say. 

15 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I lived in Brooklyn from very late 1998-July 2005. My life partner was the GL Editor at Digest from early 1999 to July 2005. I had the privilege to meet most of the soap press, typically I was in the Digest office 2 or 3 afternoons & then there were activities often at night. I became personal friends with various GL people. I treasure that time. I am not an insider. Never have been. It just so happens that I knew people & know some still. If you can't tell that I am telling "stuff" I'm doing this all wrong. 😉

Well that's really cool, what a fun opportunity that was!

21 minutes ago, Ryanc2 said:

Interesting. So when would you guys say the show really started to decline in terms of quality and budget, etc? Because the 1999 episodes I’m watching now seem like they have a pretty good budget. There is a good variety of sets, very large cast. I was wondering just how small the cast ends up getting over the next few years because I can only assume there were some cast cuts and I’m sure there were less sets. &nbsp

In terms of sets, it's around '04-'06. I can't recall on GL, but on ATWT all of the sudden sets that actors had to run from one side to the other to answer the door bell, got shorter and shorter. Then stairs got cut down from two landings to one. Then they would disappear all together and in their place was an awkwardly placed doorway that now "lead upstairs".

They started using cheap looking "mall type" sets. GL had a cheap motel that was barely big enough to put a cheap looking bed.

Creatively, for me, it's probably '00 when we descended into San Cristobel. (or San CristoHELL.) The last truly highpoint for me is '93, but I understand (and agree) that it was still watchable in a lot of ways. Looking back, there's a definite shift in storytelling, where they suddenly seem more worried about angering viewers than telling good drama. (Make'm laugh, make'm cry, make'm wait seems to have gone out the door)

The cast (at least to me) doesn't seem significantly smaller, but the vets are on significantly less (I swear, Blake went into comas to explain more than one absence) and the quality of the acting declines dramatically, due either to the talent recruited or the lack of rehearsal and writing or some combination of all three. Not to pick on her, but Michelle Ray Smith as Ava Peralta is the type of character that really could've shaken up the town if cast correctly. IMO, it wasn't, and we had to suffer for two years as the show tied her to Jeff and Olivia and tried desperately to make her relevant.

2 minutes ago, P.J. said:

In terms of sets, it's around '04-'06. I can't recall on GL, but on ATWT all of the sudden sets that actors had to run from one side to the other to answer the door bell, got shorter and shorter. Then stairs got cut down from two landings to one. Then they would disappear all together and in their place was an awkwardly placed doorway that now "lead upstairs".

They started using cheap looking "mall type" sets. GL had a cheap motel that was barely big enough to put a cheap looking bed.

Creatively, for me, it's probably '00 when we descended into San Cristobel. (or San CristoHELL.) The last truly highpoint for me is '93, but I understand (and agree) that it was still watchable in a lot of ways. Looking back, there's a definite shift in storytelling, where they suddenly seem more worried about angering viewers than telling good drama. (Make'm laugh, make'm cry, make'm wait seems to have gone out the door)

The cast (at least to me) doesn't seem significantly smaller, but the vets are on significantly less (I swear, Blake went into comas to explain more than one absence) and the quality of the acting declines dramatically, due either to the talent recruited or the lack of rehearsal and writing or some combination of all three. Not to pick on her, but Michelle Ray Smith as Ava Peralta is the type of character that really could've shaken up the town if cast correctly. IMO, it wasn't, and we had to suffer for two years as the show tied her to Jeff and Olivia and tried desperately to make her relevant.

One word: Grady. 

33 minutes ago, alwaysAMC said:

Well that's really cool, what a fun opportunity that was!

Thanks, believe me I know it was a lucky, blessed time. 

You may see that I am considered a Wheeler apologist, which I own, but I hope that it is obvious that I also blame her for some specific things. Even though, the blame really fell on P&G & on CBS. 

6 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

One word: Grady. 

Well, there were a lot. And even going back to the late '90's and the recasting of Josh and Reva's kids I don't think went well. And let's not even get into Nancy St. Alban.

15 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

You may see that I am considered a Wheeler apologist, which I own, but I hope that it is obvious that I also blame her for some specific things. Even though, the blame really fell on P&G & on CBS.

Something a lot of people forget is that P&G wanted to get out of the soap opera biz. (Which is why I was SHOCKED when I found out BTG is a P&G soap).

The networks also had decided that soaps were too expensive, that it was much cheaper to produce game/talk/lifestyle shows. They weren't totally wrong about that. During the 80s and early 90s, soaps became very opulent, with frequent location shoots, huge casts, storylines that required big, grand scenes, and stars who got big money. But as soap viewing habits changed, they couldn't sustain it.

Instead of rethinking soaps, maybe going back to a simpler way of making them (like perhaps reducing them to half an hour), they just decided to ditch them. Over at ABC, it is my belief that Brian Frons was hired basically to sabotage their soaps. AMC and OLTL didn't die. They were killed. 

Yes, what they did with GL the last few years reeked of desperation, (and yes, a lot of it turned out awful) but at least they were trying to find some way to save it. They had nothing left but experimentation, and it's possible they could have eventually found the way for soaps into the future. Wheeler made the same mistakes a lot of other shows made, i.e. taking focus away from vets for younger characters. But the vets cost more, and bean counters are going to bean count.

I think most of the people working on it knew how dire the situation was and that's why they agreed to pay cuts. They were trying to save their show! KZ, being in her 50s and thinking she still should be the star of the show (IMO, soaps are better when they are an ensemble) is kind of insane. Maybe she was thinking of the grand dames of the older soaps, like Mary Stuart. But they played matriarchs, and she never really wanted to play that part, she still wanted to be the romantic lead.

If she had gone along with everyone else, would it have saved the show? Extremely unlikely. The soaps were in a death spiral, so no one can blame her for that. But it doesn't make her look very good.

In retrospect, it would be perfectly obvious that Zimmer would win her first Emmy based on her competition. It's again annoying to see that Lucci took up so many slots for Best Actress while other worthy nominees were overlooked and/or never nominated. As for her second Emmy win, she was also not facing much competition. She again had Lucci with ridiculous material. Marcy Walker submitting weak material (from what I remember reading, it was Eden arguing with cruz about the status of their relationship). Frances Reid submitting nothing material. Her only competition would have been Elizabeth Hubbard from ATWT.

As for her book and Ellen Wheeler, it's interesting she doesn't lay as much blame on Conboy who did a lot of damage to the show financially and behind the scenes. She also blames Ellen Wheeler for casting decisions that Conboy made. And if P&G had decided to get out of the soap business, it didn't matter who was producing. I'm not an Ellen Wheeler apologist. I think she's a fantastic actress, but a terrible EP. Zimmer's anger is misplaced and she knows it. It's easier for her to be madder at the hired gun than the corporation.

If she really cared about GL as a whole, she would know that one of the horrific things that soured people on the show was the disgusting way Michael Zaslow was treated by her fave EP Paul Rauch and MADD. My mother was not even watching the show then and she's still livid about how he was treated. She brought up the wizened old man remark and how it soured her on the show especially as she works as a nurse. 

Teens and twentysomethings do not watch soaps just for people their own ages. I never did. Advertisers know this. Execs know this. Yet they still chase the teen/young adult dollar with young characters. When they used to publish the Q ratings of soap actors, JEanne Cooper's Kay was the top actress for teen and young adult viewers. They loved her, but that didn't fit into what advertisers wanted so Q ratings were quickly phased out because the reality didn't match what the execs wanted. 

4 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Teens and twentysomethings do not watch soaps just for people their own ages. I never did. Advertisers know this. Execs know this. Yet they still chase the teen/young adult dollar with young characters. When they used to publish the Q ratings of soap actors, JEanne Cooper's Kay was the top actress for teen and young adult viewers. They loved her, but that didn't fit into what advertisers wanted so Q ratings were quickly phased out because the reality didn't match what the execs wanted. 

This is absolutely true. I was a teen when they introduced Katherine on Y&R and I LOVED HER CHARACTER! I was on her side, not Jill's, even though she was my contemporary.

When GH became so popular with college students, I think they didn't realize it was a thing for students to watch the show together at the student union or watch together in other groups (I did this with friends). When they left college and started working, they lost interest.

I was always a soap viewer from a young age, so I kept watching. My sister was devoted to GH during those years. As soon as she left school, she lost interest. When I tried to catch her up on the show, she was like, "Oh, that. I'm too busy to pay attention to that now." I think that was not unusual for that generation of viewers. It wasn't like the old days, when, once hooked on a show, people would keep watching.

37 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Something a lot of people forget is that P&G wanted to get out of the soap opera biz. (Which is why I was SHOCKED when I found out BTG is a P&G soap).

But, at the same time P&G fought NBC trying to keep them from killing AW. Then, after being exhausted from internecine warfare BTS in a soap opera, summer '99 with AW's demise, they had to turn around & being to fight with CBS. Me, I am one who does not think that P&G made some calculated decision that it was time to get out of the soap business. Although, it is true that they drastically reduced the number of products they carried that required the soaps for them to advertise on. (What I recall reading was between 2000 & 2006 where more happened as they went along, they reduced their number of household products by half. Since they used to have multiple brands that is not unimaginable. But, it made the soaps much less important to them.) And, I assert that they got tired of the fight. 

When P&G Studios was announced as one of the sponsors of our bright shiny new soap, I was gobsmacked!

37 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

The networks also had decided that soaps were too expensive, that it was much cheaper to produce game/talk/lifestyle shows. They weren't totally wrong about that. During the 80s and early 90s, soaps became very opulent, with frequent location shoots, huge casts, storylines that required big, grand scenes, and stars who got big money. But as soap viewing habits changed, they couldn't sustain it.

Back when soaps were the golden goose that laid all those golden eggs that paid from primetime experimentation. (I know it's usually cash cow.) But, back then, there were fewer channels, soaps were produced MUCH more cheaply & as you describe things had changed. 

37 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Instead of rethinking soaps, maybe going back to a simpler way of making them (like perhaps reducing them to half an hour), they just decided to ditch them. Over at ABC, it is my belief that Brian Frons was hired basically to sabotage their soaps. AMC and OLTL didn't die. They were killed. 

When soap journo & one of the editors of SOAP OPERA NOW, Michael Kape, interviewed the Daytime Destroyer, Brian Frons for the first time in 1983 he said that already he hated soaps & wanted to kill them & clear the daypart of them. Notably he canceled SFT twice, first on CBS & then on NBC. Then, he ended up at ABC. One very terrible day in April he was supposed to go forth & give a cancelation order to OLTL. He got it into his head to do AMC, also. We don't know whether to go with maximum insult & say it was a whim, or not. But, we also know that he wanted to do the same to GH & THE ONLY REASON HE DID NOT is that they did not have any show in the wings or even in development that they could put in its spot. After AMC/OLTL massacre he turned SOAPnet into ANOTHER Disney Jr. Then he was fired, or let go, or whatever. And, then, 3 months later, his boss, Anne Sweeney, gone, also, although I think she was promoted in Peter Principle style. His current bio says he runs a highly successful consultancy business. Yeah, right. Easy to say. I am not the first person to wonder why this industry hires saboteurs!!!

37 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Yes, what they did with GL the last few years reeked of desperation, (and yes, a lot of it turned out awful) but at least they were trying to find some way to save it. They had nothing left but experimentation, and it's possible they could have eventually found the way for soaps into the future. Wheeler made the same mistakes a lot of other shows made, i.e. taking focus away from vets for younger characters. But the vets cost more, and bean counters are going to bean count.

And, many people from different soaps came to GL by request & appointment to see what they were doing & how they were doing it. US soaps reinvented themselves several times. GL was the last attempt. 

37 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

I think most of the people working on it knew how dire the situation was and that's why they agreed to pay cuts. They were trying to save their show!

I absolutely agree. I think they knew the reality of the situation & why a sacrificial ask like that was appropriate. 

37 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

KZ, being in her 50s and thinking she still should be the star of the show (IMO, soaps are better when they are an ensemble) is kind of insane. Maybe she was thinking of the grand dames of the older soaps, like Mary Stuart. But they played matriarchs, and she never really wanted to play that part, she still wanted to be the romantic lead.

If she had gone along with everyone else, would it have saved the show? Extremely unlikely. The soaps were in a death spiral, so no one can blame her for that. But it doesn't make her look very good.

I only care that people think about things & not blindly believe some fiction about her refusing the pay cut out of high-minded ideals. 

Edited June 22Jun 22 by Contessa Donatella

Regarding Zimmer and the paycut, my argument remains that her point is valid; opening a contractmidway through sets a precedent. The summary implies that Zimmer's out wasn't until almost a year later so maybe she was throwing around the sentiment, but I do believe she took the cut a year later. In that climate, post-DAys serial killer plot, I don't blame Zimmer. And this was all 2005. The timing was the Daytime Emmys brunch and I seem to remember Erika Slezak and Jeanne Cooper agreeing with Zimmer. If Zimmer was that much fo a financial burden, they easily could have spent the year deemphasizing her role, which they pretty much did anyway as she played second fiddle in the Jonathan / Tammy story and then they slowly paired Nicole Forester's very fresh on the scene Cassie with Josh. 

Also, wasn't there supposedly an attempt to lure Grant Alexander back full-time in 2005. Where was that money coming from? 

There was a lot of cast turnover in 2005. Entire front burner storylines saw their entire cast dropped by choice or force (no one survived the baby switch other than Dinah). 

Maybe with a stronger writer, Wheeler could have weathered the storm, but not with Kriezman and Swajeski at the helm. She made some nice adjustments when she initially arrived in March, 2004, but within the year, the potential was lost as Kriezman went into overdrive with centering the show on his toxic male avatar Tom Pelphrey's unchecked Jonathan and by replacing Danmy and Michelle with Gus and Harley as the show eating couple. By the time the budget cuts hit, the show was pretty lost anyway. With or without the cuts, I think I would have left as my jump the shark moment was the onscreen reveal that Phillip was alive and being hidden by Alan after months of story around a non-existent murder mystery.