1 hour ago, DRW50 said:

I do wonder how much a new producer who could have worked in tandem with Marland might have made a difference in my enjoyment. 

The biggest issues for me are casting, lack of energy, and character misuse. So many new characters just seemed inert and lethargic. Mark Pinter was a poor choice for a character who should have been as sexual and dynamic as Mark was intended to be. Josh and Vanessa were wasted in heel/plot mover roles. The couples often lacked chemistry, aside from Quint and Nola. Jennifer Cook was such a poor choice for Morgan that it completely wrecked the character makeup as well as her chemistry with Kelly. And then there were relationships like Tony/Hilary which on paper probably should have been compelling (the tough guy who is afraid of being hurt and the woman who is trying to think out her relationship in a very cautious, early '80s way, while her heart is with Tony) fall flat to me, as they just talk and talk and talk (like Carrie and Ross before she cracked up) and I don't find Tony in any way likeable. For me it wouldn't have been a choice - I would have never let Derek go compared to Tony (or most of the men on the canvas at that time). 

Some of this was fixed after Marland left (I seem to remember less of Tony haranguing Nola), but of course many other elements fell apart. 

One of the biggest changes I would have made was with the Amanda/Mark/Jennifer triangle. If Stephen Yates had been willing to stay, I would have had Ben and Jennifer fall in love during Amanda's extended breakdown. The whole thrust of the story of Amanda having passionate feelings for Jennifer's new husband falls flat for me because all the relationships are new or relatively new and I also don't believe in the chemistry between those involved. There would have been higher stakes in Jennifer, who had been struggling and downcast most of her life, falling in love with a gorgeous, funny, warm, caring artist...who was married to the daughter she had just reconnected with. When the truth comes out, you could also have Morgan regress into her wild child days, shattered both by her suffocating marriage and her mother falling off the pedestal. And no matter how "nice" Alan was meant to be at this time, I think he would have exploded at his old love being involved with his daughter's husband. This would also cause some conflict for Hope given her past with Ben.

 

I do not get the Amanda/Mark/Jennifer triangle. Or, more precisely, I don't know why Jennifer was moved into that story. I would've gone Ross/Amanda/Mark/Vanessa, with Mark using Vanessa to get into Spaulding, Ross falling for Amanda after Carrie left him, but Amanda falling for Mark's since she can't truly trust Ross after his history of manipulating her. That way you use the animosity already brewing between Amanda/Vanessa, Ross and Vanessa at some point realizing they again have a common goal to keep Amanda/Mark apart, Mark and Vanessa plotting to take over Spaulding, and Vanessa at risk of finding out about Mark's past as he plots to kill her (after realizing he wants Amanda) like he did Mona/Rebecca.

The only angle Jennifer really brought was conflicts between Amanda and Morgan, which well, underwhelmed.

Though I suppose the problem with this scenario is that Marland didn't plan on losing Carrie mid-82, therefore Ross wasn't really free.

As much as I love Vanessa, her plotting under Marland is almost childish. I'm sure he would've fleshed her out with the Quinton reveal, but he does seem preoccupied with Carrie in '82.

Edited June 15Jun 15 by P.J.

35 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Now, this is new. AW fans have the Red Swan. AMC fans have Libidizone. Y&R fans have the reliquary. DAYS fans have the prisms. And, now, GL fans have the deed & the engagement ring. Anyone know any others?

GL does have Infinity, and ATWT had Bilan. (Bilan was the daughter of the drug-dealer Bob married, but I swear, we didn't know for months who or what Bilan was.)

26 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

GH: The Ice Princess

Ryan's Hope: Merit Kara

One Life to Live: The City of Eterna!

OMG, you've reminded me of the reliquary story on Y&R. Every time a soap starts an art theft story, I think, "Oh, God, we're in for 6 months of torture." The 1986 GL episodes being uploaded now are the beginning of their art theft story. 😩

From before: 

  45 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

Now, this is new. AW fans have the Red Swan. AMC fans have Libidizone. Y&R fans have the reliquary. DAYS fans have the prisms. And, now, GL fans have the deed & the engagement ring. Anyone know any others?

Fabulous!!! I've never even heard of the RH one. Of course since AW is my forever favorite I think the Red Swan is worst! AMC fans disagree. 

 

5 minutes ago, P.J. said:

GL does have Infinity, and ATWT had Bilan. (Bilan was the daughter of the drug-dealer Bob married, but I swear, we didn't know for months who or what Bilan was.)

More McGuffin-like soapy goodness.

1 hour ago, alwaysAMC said:

I wish I could contribute to the 80s talk!  Maybe one day   

Episodes are kind of streaky until about mid-'82. Although there are several clipped storylines that give you a good feel for characters/stories. Y'know...for someday.

My mother was an infrequent GL watcher but I knew she watched during the Reva/Kyle time. When I talked to her today, I asked her about it. These are her thoughts:

Kyle/Reva were her favorite couple (editorial note: in order not to be disinherited, I said nothing). Maeve had no business breaking them up but she liked Maeve and Vanessa's voices (?). She thought Fletcher was the best looking man on the show. My mother is a nurse and remembered a storyline about someone having syphillis or an STD. She doesn't remember who. I had no idea who she was talking about.  She didn't remember "Cain" but when I described a little bit of the story, she said, "Was he the lunatic in the cabin?" She thought Jessie was just the cutest thing and wanted me to tell her what happened with Jessie and Simon. She was annoyed I didn't know.  She remembered some redhead and Lujack. I think she was talking about Frances Fisher so I told her that was before all of this and Lujack was dead at this point. I didn't know that storyline so couldn't help her much and that was it.

1 minute ago, chrisml said:

My mother was an infrequent GL watcher but I knew she watched during the Reva/Kyle time. When I talked to her today, I asked her about it. These are her thoughts:

Kyle/Reva were her favorite couple (editorial note: in order not to be disinherited, I said nothing). Maeve had no business breaking them up but she liked Maeve and Vanessa's voices (?). She thought Fletcher was the best looking man on the show. My mother is a nurse and remembered a storyline about someone having syphillis or an STD. She doesn't remember who. I had no idea who she was talking about.  She didn't remember "Cain" but when I described a little bit of the story, she said, "Was he the lunatic in the cabin?" She thought Jessie was just the cutest thing and wanted me to tell her what happened with Jessie and Simon. She was annoyed I didn't know.  She remembered some redhead and Lujack. I think she was talking about Frances Fisher so I told her that was before all of this and Lujack was dead at this point. I didn't know that storyline so couldn't help her much and that was it.

I am laughing like crazy at how disappointed I suspect your mom was.

Did you ever watch soaps together?

My mother & I did. 

5 minutes ago, chrisml said:

Kyle/Reva were her favorite couple (editorial note: in order not to be disinherited, I said nothing). 

LOL   I need to play this game with my mom and grandma.

9 hours ago, P.J. said:

It was enlightening to me to how unstable the writing regimes are at GL after the Dobsons leave in '80. Marland had two years. Long does 2 three year stints. Curlee/Demorest (with Reilly and Broderick) last about three and actually dovetail with Long's last tenure. Starting with '94, I don't think anyone lasts more than a year until Kriezman in '05.

That's appalling.

Not just HW changes, but also EP changes in that same era: Allen Potter (1976-1983), Gail Kobe (1983-1986), Joe Willmore (1986-1989), Robert Calhoun (1989-1991), JFP (1991-1995), Michael Laibson (1995-1996), Paul Rauch (1996-2002), John Conboy (2002-2004), Ellen Wheeler (2004-2009).

5 hours ago, chrisml said:

P&G is responsible for the mess if both AW and GL are going through the same thing in 1986. I'm not versed on production history pre-1986 for either show but my sense is AW was having problems for longer than GL. Someone was asleep over at P&G or just didn't care.

P&G was shaken by 1978-1982 ABC big three huge rise and dominance, thus all the changes to their shows.

1986 Another World had been limping along for 7 years and GL began its slide whereas As the World Turns rebounded and became P&G's highest-rated and CBS's #2 daytime drama.

19 minutes ago, chrisml said:

My mother was an infrequent GL watcher but I knew she watched during the Reva/Kyle time. When I talked to her today, I asked her about it. These are her thoughts:

Kyle/Reva were her favorite couple (editorial note: in order not to be disinherited, I said nothing). Maeve had no business breaking them up but she liked Maeve and Vanessa's voices (?). She thought Fletcher was the best looking man on the show. My mother is a nurse and remembered a storyline about someone having syphillis or an STD. She doesn't remember who. I had no idea who she was talking about.  She didn't remember "Cain" but when I described a little bit of the story, she said, "Was he the lunatic in the cabin?" She thought Jessie was just the cutest thing and wanted me to tell her what happened with Jessie and Simon. She was annoyed I didn't know.  She remembered some redhead and Lujack. I think she was talking about Frances Fisher so I told her that was before all of this and Lujack was dead at this point. I didn't know that storyline so couldn't help her much and that was it.

Calla Matthews (Jessie's mother) had contracted syphillis from her husband, and became infertile, which was one of the reasons she was hesitant to be in a relationship with Ross.

Jessie left town to go to Duke University. Calla and Simon followed.

I do agree with her, Maeve Kinkead's voice is so melodic. And it can drip in venom in a heartbeat.

11 minutes ago, P.J. said:

I do agree with her, Maeve Kinkead's voice is so melodic. And it can drip in venom in a heartbeat.

Okay then, head to head, voice only: Beverlee vs. Maeve?

25 minutes ago, Contessa Donatella said:

I am laughing like crazy at how disappointed I suspect your mom was.

Did you ever watch soaps together?

My mother & I did. 

I remember watching soaps with my mom as far back as the mid-60s. She was a big ATWT fan, but she watched many other shows: DOOL, Love of Life, Another World, and she ADORED Edge of Night. (She ALWAYS figured out the murderer and would spoil it for me--I would be SO mad!) We watched the premiere epsisode of Y&R together.

I remember watching General Hospital when it was little more than a nurse's station set. It had elevator doors that would open and people would occasionally come out. That was it, that was the set. I was a little kid and thought that was hilarious. Of course it was black & white back then.

Dark Shadows was the only show we didn't watch together--that was MY show. 

And of course GL. She got me into it during the mid-70s because she had a crush on Michael Zaslow. 

50 minutes ago, chrisml said:

My mother was an infrequent GL watcher but I knew she watched during the Reva/Kyle time. When I talked to her today, I asked her about it. These are her thoughts:

Kyle/Reva were her favorite couple (editorial note: in order not to be disinherited, I said nothing). Maeve had no business breaking them up but she liked Maeve and Vanessa's voices (?). She thought Fletcher was the best looking man on the show. My mother is a nurse and remembered a storyline about someone having syphillis or an STD. She doesn't remember who. I had no idea who she was talking about.  She didn't remember "Cain" but when I described a little bit of the story, she said, "Was he the lunatic in the cabin?" She thought Jessie was just the cutest thing and wanted me to tell her what happened with Jessie and Simon. She was annoyed I didn't know.  She remembered some redhead and Lujack. I think she was talking about Frances Fisher so I told her that was before all of this and Lujack was dead at this point. I didn't know that storyline so couldn't help her much and that was it.

I had that same conversation with my late mom years ago about 80s Guiding light... and she was a Reva/Kyle fan and a Maeve/Fletcher fan.  In fact, my mom adored Fletcher and thought he was funny and good looking... and she also loved Jessie and Simon as well LOL

And... she loved the Shaynes.. especially Rusty with Mindy and she liked Roxie.. but only with Rick and not Johnny.

7 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

That story was SUCH a stinker. Really surprising considering how good a casting director they had and then they gave us Pinter and Cook. Cook apparently was a calculated move to make Morgan a more conventional beauty (Geraldine Court complained about it). But I don't get the choice to cast Pinter. If you're going to have a story about not only two women fighting over a man, he's also a grifter with a long history of fooling women, he better have some freakin' charisma. He didn't have to be drop-dead gorgeous, but he had to have SOMETHING that made you believe these women were so drawn to him, and I'm sorry, Pinter didn't have that. The story made both women look like idiots.

(It could have been worse. I've heard that the original plan was for both Amanda and Jennifer to become pregnant).

We have to give Long credit for taking Josh and Vanessa off that track and making them much better drawn characters.

I have never understood why they spent so much time portraying Alan and Jennifer's past as some kind of transformative experience and then...did nothing with it. At all. They acted like distant relations.

They did so little with Hope outside of her relationship with Alan. That's why it was so easy to yeet her out of show.

The thought of Amanda and Jennifer drearily wandering around in maternity dresses for months...

The changes in Josh seemed to happen not that long after Marland left, but Vanessa did seem to take longer. I don't get the sense Long was hugely invested in Vanessa, as others have mentioned, but she did at least pair her with Billy, which was so important for the show's future and Vanessa's. 

Pinter had some sizzle with Kim Rhodes on AW, but that was 15 years later (why does it seem so much longer?) and escaped him in his other soap parts.

Cook seems a little better in her last months when she's away from Kelly and written to be closer to her own age, but she was completely unsuited to the material they cast her for. Good for Court for calling out the traditional beauty standard casting. 

When they retcon Amanda's paternity in 1997, I do remember feeling that Alan cared about Jennifer (even if I think they got her name wrong in the retcon), so I was surprised at how little to no feeling was there when I see them in the original run. 

The saddest part is the time they wrote Hope out was when they were giving her material that would have been interesting and propel her into a new story.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

GL does have Infinity, and ATWT had Bilan. (Bilan was the daughter of the drug-dealer Bob married, but I swear, we didn't know for months who or what Bilan was.)

One that amused me at the time was the amount of times we got the flashback of Sarah Shayne saying, "find him for me, Reva!"

(when the gender was changed, the clip stopped appearing, sadly)

5 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I had that same conversation with my late mom years ago about 80s Guiding light... and she was a Reva/Kyle fan and a Maeve/Fletcher fan.  In fact, my mom adored Fletcher and thought he was funny and good looking... and she also loved Jessie and Simon as well LOL

And... she loved the Shaynes.. especially Rusty with Mindy and she liked Roxie.. but only with Rick and not Johnny.

These posts from the moms are making me feel less odd about generally always liking Fletcher (maybe until the last few years where he lost all personality beyond sanctimony).

I created a monster. My mother messaged me: "I remembered something else. They played the Kenny Loggins song every time Reva and Kyle were in a room together. I loved that song. Can you find me the name?" I told her I believe it was "Forever" (from clips I've seen) so we'll see if I'm right when she gets back with me. She had no interest in my explaining how I knew more about Frances Fisher's work on Edge of Night than what she did on GL. "Your grandmother might have watched that. I didn't." 

My mother and I never watched soaps together. She either watched the soaps at work or while I was at school. I watched soaps with my grandmother. Soaps were always talked about, but if you're not watching the same soaps, you remember certain details, but that's about it.

1 hour ago, P.J. said:

I do not get the Amanda/Mark/Jennifer triangle. Or, more precisely, I don't know why Jennifer was moved into that story. I would've gone Ross/Amanda/Mark/Vanessa, with Mark using Vanessa to get into Spaulding, Ross falling for Amanda after Carrie left him, but Amanda falling for Mark's since she can't truly trust Ross after his history of manipulating her. That way you use the animosity already brewing between Amanda/Vanessa, Ross and Vanessa at some point realizing they again have a common goal to keep Amanda/Mark apart, Mark and Vanessa plotting to take over Spaulding, and Vanessa at risk of finding out about Mark's past as he plots to kill her (after realizing he wants Amanda) like he did Mona/Rebecca.

The only angle Jennifer really brought was conflicts between Amanda and Morgan, which well, underwhelmed.

Though I suppose the problem with this scenario is that Marland didn't plan on losing Carrie mid-82, therefore Ross wasn't really free.

As much as I love Vanessa, her plotting under Marland is almost childish. I'm sure he would've fleshed her out with the Quinton reveal, but he does seem preoccupied with Carrie in '82.

You're right. Ross being involved in the story would have made more sense. If they had to include Jennifer, I could see Ross reverting to his old ways after Carrie's killing spree breaks his heart (maybe have her shoot him too), and goes after Jennifer for her money or Spaulding connections, but his heart is still with Amanda. 

The Mark/Vanessa/Ross/Amanda angle also makes a lot of sense. 

All you have to do is compare the response to this story from viewers to the response to Holly/Ross/Blake to show you what might have been (it helped that that story was not more sluggish than a houseful of slugs). 

Vanessa is just never best served as some type of camp or boo hiss figure - she can be campy, those moments where she fights with Nola are certainly pure camp, but stuff like pounding on Eve's door in her Jackie O sunglasses weren't putting her in a great long term place.