You're welcome @DRW50

Holly returns December 1988, so a full 8 years she's absent.

So Holly was still on the canvas for quite some time after Vanessa was introduced. But during Jennifer's trial, I think Vanessa was trying to get back with Ross. They were definitely together during Jennifer's second trial, in early 1981. Holly was long gone before Vanessa became involved with Ed.

Edited yesterday at 04:14 AM1 day by DeeVee

Vanessa and Ross are definitely sleeping together before Jennifer's retrial in Jan '81. According to recaps, Ross tried getting into Evie's bed around the time of Rita's party. Vanessa interrupted them and told him that Evie was too boring for him.

Vanessa and Ed don't start dating until after her suicide attempt in March '81.

It just seems odd to me Vanessa wouldn't have crossed with either Holly or Rita. Although unless all those episodes become available, we won't know for certain. Speaking of, I'd love to find Van and Nola's first meeting.

Ed was all about Holly and Rita in 1980. Then they both left and Ed pivoted towards Vanessa in 81. They split Jan 82 just in time for Maureen's arrival.

Vanessa hooked up with Mar Evans in early 82.

16 hours ago, SoapDope78 said:

We barely get any videos from 1980 especially anything between summer and Christmas of 1980 so seeing Holly being on the verge of leaving town is a nice gift.

From what I recall, the actress had only signed a 1 year contract in November 1979 and wanted to see how she felt at the end of that contract before deciding if she wanted to stay or not. Sadly, the timing of a regime change and Michael Zaslow leaving and being killed off basically made her character almost a background character through most of 1980 so I could see why she opted to leave.

Someone a long time ago had posted an interview with the actress after she left where she stated that after Roger 'dying' that she hoped the writers would focus on Holly rebuilding her life, getting her strength back, and having more agency in her life. And she stated that most of what was written for her had her playing someone meek and almost defeated by life instead of someone rebuilding their life. Even this episode showed a worn out and zombie like Holly as she was preparing to leave.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

Someone a long time ago had posted an interview with the actress after she left where she stated that after Roger 'dying' that she hoped the writers would focus on Holly rebuilding her life, getting her strength back, and having more agency in her life.

Let's face it, that's something Marland would not have been at all interested in writing. I bet if she had stayed, he wouldn't have even used her much in the upcoming Ed/Rita/Alan/Hope mess. He probably still would have preferred to have Ed with Vanessa, a character he created. She was wise to go when she did.

17 minutes ago, DeeVee said:

Let's face it, that's something Marland would not have been at all interested in writing. I bet if she had stayed, he wouldn't have even used her much in the upcoming Ed/Rita/Alan/Hope mess. He probably still would have preferred to have Ed with Vanessa, a character he created. She was wise to go when she did.

Most likely, Holly would have been used in a way where Ed was spending time with Holly and Blake for purely innocent reasons.. and Rita's insecurity would have driven her to be with Alan. That whole element did play out in the late 80s/early 90s between Ed/Maureen/Holly

I had read weekly synopsis of this period, and the only thing I could have seen her doing in 1981 was being somewhat involved in the whole Andy Norris situation since he was her brother and probably in conflict with their mother Barbara because Barbara would be blind to Andy and his true nature.

And there were some interactions in the weekly synopsis between her and Joe Bradley so I imagine perhaps she would have been occupied with that while the whole Ed/Hope/Rita/Alan story was going on in 1981

Edited 9 hours ago9 hr by Soaplovers

I guess after Holly being a major player throughout the 70's, Marland felt that there weren't many options that appealed to him.

He had stories and characters he wanted to explore and with MG's contract up it was a chance to make space for newbies.

Over his tenure Marland dropped, through choice or circumstance ,Holly, Rita, Lucille, Ben, Elizabeth, Diane, Ann and other characters like Peter, Mark, Steve ,Barbara.

36 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Over his tenure Marland dropped, through choice or circumstance ,Holly, Rita, Lucille, Ben, Elizabeth, Diane, Ann and other characters like Peter, Mark, Steve ,Barbara.

Lenore Kasdorf (Rita) chose to leave, supposedly because she and her husband (also an actor) wanted to move to LA. I think Sofia Landon (Diane) also chose to go.

Mark, you mean Katie's boyfriend? Yeah, he probably was not going to last long, regardless of who was writing the show. Peter, too. He was mainly Holly's stalwart fella while she went through all her troubles. No surprise he didn't last long after Roger's exit.

There was also Greg Fairbanks, the doctor who Rita thought might be her baby daddy. Again, I doubt he was meant to be a long-term character anyway. Few probably even realized he was gone, LOL. I could be wrong, because I'm not sure of the timing of his introduction, but I've long suspected he was brought in specifically to do the baby drama because Lenore was pregnant. If she had not gotten pregnant, I am pretty certain the affair with Alan would have happened much sooner. The Dobsons were setting it up for a long time.

Marland killing off Lucille I've always felt was a mistake. He eviserated all the female antagonists that came with the Dobson era, if you think about it. He never really replaced them. Vanessa never QUITE fit that category. Yeah, she could be bitchy, but she wasn't destructive like Lucille or Diane. @P.J. I think described her as someone who liked to upset apple carts, but it was just to see what would happen more than being actually hurtful. Nola in his mind was his heroine, who did everything for love and to better herself, so she wasn't really bad.

The closest he came to a real female villain was Carrie's alternate personality.

Now that I think about it, GL was missing full-on bitch characters until the 1990s, with Annie, Dinah, and Amanda (who, IMO, was slated by the Dobsons to eventually become a more villainous character, which is kind of ironic).

Maybe the closest before that was Nadine? When Reva was introduced, it seemed she was going to be that kind of character, but that went out the window really fast. Never for one moment could I figure out what Sonni's deal was beyond being a roadblock for Josh and Reva.

Am I missing some people?

7 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Most likely, Holly would have been used in a way where Ed was spending time with Holly and Blake for purely innocent reasons.. and Rita's insecurity would have driven her to be with Alan. That whole element did play out in the late 80s/early 90s between Ed/Maureen/Holly

I had read weekly synopsis of this period, and the only thing I could have seen her doing in 1981 was being somewhat involved in the whole Andy Norris situation since he was her brother and probably in conflict with their mother Barbara because Barbara would be blind to Andy and his true nature.

And there were some interactions in the weekly synopsis between her and Joe Bradley so I imagine perhaps she would have been occupied with that while the whole Ed/Hope/Rita/Alan story was going on in 1981

Yes, I think Holly would have been there mostly to react to Ed's love life and to Andy's destruction. I can't see her having any real story of her own.

I think it might have been interesting seeing her paired with someone like Tony, whose roughness might remind her of Roger, but whose kind heart might remind her of Ed (even if I didn't see much of that kind heart, he was meant to have one). And then we'd see someone who was immature and brash helping to raise a traumatized little girl. Then if Ed was still paired with Maureen, you'd have the conflict of ex-spouses, and co-parents to Christina, dating siblings.

Marland's writing for women on GL is generally disappointing to me - aside from Nola and Vanessa (and I don't think Vanessa was well-written), one wan, noble figure after another, all in a row. I don't think he would have done anything with Holly.

I think Maureen Garrett also benefited from the life experience of another decade. She's good in what I've seen of her first run, and she does what she can with her poor run on Ryan's Hope, but she is luminous by the time of her return to Springfield.

3 hours ago, DeeVee said:

Maybe the closest before that was Nadine? When Reva was introduced, it seemed she was going to be that kind of character, but that went out the window really fast. Never for one moment could I figure out what Sonni's deal was beyond being a roadblock for Josh and Reva.

Am I missing some people?

I haven't watched Nadine's early run very closely but by the time she is scheming to keep Billy I think she is too sad and pathetic to be a villain.

India started out as a bitch, but the show pulled back with her.

Jenna also started out as a colder schemer but was significantly weakened throughout 1993.

3 hours ago, DeeVee said:

Now that I think about it, GL was missing full-on bitch characters until the 1990s, with Annie, Dinah, and Amanda (who, IMO, was slated by the Dobsons to eventually become a more villainous character, which is kind of ironic).

Maybe the closest before that was Nadine? When Reva was introduced, it seemed she was going to be that kind of character, but that went out the window really fast. Never for one moment could I figure out what Sonni's deal was beyond being a roadblock for Josh and Reva.

Am I missing some people?

Alexandra maybe. Was she intended to be a new villainess? From what I've seen of Kobe/Long, Alexandra was introduced as a jet-setting socialite but I don't think she initially showed much interest in Spaulding Enterprises.

Blake was a vixen when Sherry Stringfield was in the role.

2 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

Maureen Garrett...is luminous by the time of her return to Springfield.

Agree. When I watched the Calhoun/Long/Curlee era in real time, I thought Maureen Garrett was one of the most beautiful women on daytime.

No, GL didn't have that bitch, that woman who schemed and didn't care who got hurt. Of Marland's creations, it was Nola but only up to her meeting Quint. Vanessa stirs up trouble, she's snooty and mean-spirited, but her manipulations are more impulsive than thought out schemes. (aside from blackmailing Alan over the affair with Rita.) I'd say Nola did a lot more damage around town than Van, but that's just me.

Reva could've been that, but of course, Long dug into her sob story past and made her just "accidently" destructive. Alex was that bitch, but she wasn't cruel (at least arguably until the Mindy stuff, really), India was a schemer, but never had enough power; Calla was cold and grasping, but never really did damage. Early Blake was on that road, until she wasn't.

Nadine---she played with lives, a little like early Nola. But she was too much of a ditz to truly be considered that bitch. I hate her, but she's not really cunning enough to make the list.

Annie, Carmen, Dinah (Moniz and Tognoni, obviously), Olivia (until they gutted her to be Natalia's love interest)....and maybe Beth in some of her more off-her beam times(?) are who I'd name. Other than Lucille and Diane, GL's members of the Bitch Hall of Fame.

Claire, when she turned psycho.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by P.J.

21 minutes ago, P.J. said:

No, GL didn't have that bitch, that woman who schemed and didn't care who got hurt. Of Marland's creations, it was Nola but only up to her meeting Quint. Vanessa stirs up trouble, she's snooty and mean-spirited, but her manipulations are more impulsive than thought out schemes. (aside from blackmailing Alan over the affair with Rita.) I'd say Nola did a lot more damage around town than Van, but that's just me.

Reva could've been that, but of course, Long dug into her sob story past and made her just "accidently" destructive. Alex was that bitch, but she wasn't cruel (at least arguably until the Mindy stuff, really), India was a schemer, but never had enough power; Calla was cold and grasping, but never really did damage. Early Blake was on that road, until she wasn't.

Nadine---she played with lives, a little like early Nola. But she was too much of a ditz to truly be considered that bitch. I hate her, but she's not really cunning enough to make the list.

Annie, Carmen, Dinah (Moniz and Tognoni, obviously), Olivia (until they gutted her to be Natalia's love interest)....and maybe Beth in some of her more off-her beam times(?) are who I'd name. Other than Lucille and Diane, GL's members of the Bitch Hall of Fame.

Claire, when she turned psycho.

You're right. I do think Nola hurt more people. She was malevolent and we got to see her cruelty, whereas Vanessa was treated more like a gnat.

That scene where Nola starts raging about how much she hates Morgan and can't even bear hearing her name is astonishingly good at showing just how dark Lisa Brown could have gone with Nola.

I think Gina's Dinah and Olivia were closer to anti-heroines than villains, although they toed the line with Olivia in her first few years. She could have easily gone all the way when she was there to keep Josh/Reva apart, but either someone at the show liked her or she had a lot of fans, so she was pivoted toward Alan instead.

If they'd done a better job recasting and writing for Annie, she may have been the only real female villain in the show's last years.

GL tended to focus more on psychologically broken women it seemed.

Edited 1 hour ago1 hr by DRW50

13 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

You're right. I do think Nola hurt more people. She was malevolent and we got to see her cruelty, whereas Vanessa was treated more like a gnat.

That scene where Nola starts raging about how much she hates Morgan and can't even bear hearing her name is astonishingly good at showing just how dark Lisa Brown could have gone with Nola.

I think Gina's Dinah and Olivia were closer to anti-heroines than villains, although they toed the line with Olivia in her first few years. She could have easily gone all the way when she was there to keep Josh/Reva apart, but either someone at the show liked her or she had a lot of fans, so she was pivoted toward Alan instead.

If they'd done a better job recasting and writing for Annie, she may have been the only real female villain in the show's last years.

GL tended to focus more on psychologically broken women it seemed.

Poor Van---I love her, but in her early days, she was Wile E Coyote, and everyone else was the Roadrunner. When morally bankrupt Mark Evans dumps you, OY VEY.

I don't mind GL doesn't have a lot of villainesses, and tried to keep their characters from going over some imaginary line they couldn't come back from.

1 minute ago, P.J. said:

Poor Van---I love her, but in her early days, she was Wile E Coyote, and everyone else was the Roadrunner. When morally bankrupt Mark Evans dumps you, OY VEY.

I don't mind GL doesn't have a lot of villainesses, and tried to keep their characters from going over some imaginary line they couldn't come back from.

GL had so many generic heroines over those last decades it can be easy for me to forget they had some very interesting female characters, even toward the end. I am not too sorry the canvas wasn't littered with hams like Julia on ATWT.