and yet it was a great s/l. i wonder if the fact that Ashley is having this done to her by a man that makes this so provocative. My heart just ACHES for Ashley to have to go through this all again. But it seems as though this s/l is going to be gong on for a long time with the baby switch possibility. Victor and Ash raising Sharon and Nick's baby. Sharon crying all day long, while Ashley is the happy mother. The inevitable shockwaves when all comes out...i'm on the edge of my seat thinking about it. All speculation of course - no spoilers here.

This supposed baby switch is another thing viewers would have to let go of any intelligence for. Not only are the timelines off, but from spoilers, we learn that

Nick

is that father, so why would Mary Jane care?

This show requires too much suspension of disbelief lately.

As a woman, I don't want to blame the writing on Hogan's and Scott's gender. I think we should expect the same standards from all writers. Douglas Marland would never have written something as gross/heartless as the fetus burning. It does seem though that MAB and her writers have forgotten that most of their fans are women.

As someone who has seen Sheffer and Hamner's wrting on other shows, I can blame them for much of the crap on this show right now. But MAB deserves the most blame, she enables it to happen.

This supposed baby switch is another thing viewers would have to let go of any intelligence for. Not only are the timelines off, but from spoilers, we learn that

Nick

is that father, so why would Mary Jane care?

This show requires too much suspension of disbelief lately.

That's where you and I differ - i don't think 25% of what happens on soaps period is believable or would (not could) happen IRL. But it's the characters, actors, production and execution of said stories that separates how it's done on Y&R from how it's done on say AMC. There's a gravitas that makes it all the more interesting and appealing to watch - for me. You're right it's "subjective".

Yuck, thankfully Rahcel Kimsey is going to be on DAYS soon. She never fit in as Mac, she would have been better as another character. They totally changed Mac to fit her, which wasn't cool.

I think CF is growing into the role. I just hope the role isn't changed for any reason. I was very glad that Chloe/Raul interrupted her and Billy today. I love Mac, but I think she's the type of character that should be supporting for the most part.

I missed something - where did we see a fetus burning?

Well, where do you think the fetus went? We saw Adam burning Ashley's nightgown and the towel covered "in all that blood" in the fireplace. He would need to get rid of any evidence very quickly. ED said there is no fetus still in Ashley so they don't have to deal with infection, so therefore it doesn't take much to reason Adam burned the fetus.

i wonder if the fact that Ashley is having this done to her by a man that makes this so provocative.

I think it's provocative because a man is doing this her as means to get back at other men. Ashley, the woman, is not even the intended target -- she's collateral damage. It's actually the very height of misogyny, akin to what happens in the Sudan when the northern Sudanese rape the southern Sudanese women as a means to humiliate the southern Sudanese men. (Or you can use the example of what Serbian men did to Bosnian women in the war.) The women are not the object of the punishment. They don't even register as being worthy of engagement on that level. They are simply seen as extension of the real enemy, i.e. property, and targeted thus. For these men, hurting the women of their enemy is like burning their fields or their homes.

I missed something - where did we see a fetus burning?

Adam cleaned up the "mess" and Ashley's clothes and threw in the fireplace. ED's comments clarified that Ash is not carrying the fetus anymore -- ergo it was expelled when Ash fell and was among the "mess" that Adam burned.

That's where you and I differ - i don't think 25% of what happens on soaps period is believable or would (not could) happen IRL. But it's the characters, actors, production and execution of said stories that separates how it's done on Y&R from how it's done on say AMC. There's a gravitas that makes it all the more interesting and appealing to watch - for me. You're right it's "subjective".

But there is suspension of belief (which we all do when we watch soaps) and then there are storylines that are simply offensive to many. The gaslighting was interesting to me until Ashley fell down those stairs and lost her baby and Adam covered it up. That is when it crossed the line from being entertaining and creepy to being disgusting for me, and I imagine many viewers, and it wasn't necessary to write that aspect of the story. They could have done the baby switch at the time of delivery. Was it for shock? To make the story even more disturbing? Why? What purpose does it serve?

Edited June 16, 200916 yr by lmfan

I think it's provocative because a man is doing this her as means to get back at other men.

To me, it's just that one person is doing it to another. It's disturbing to say the least. I'd feel differently if Ashely were the crazy one doing it to herself in an effort to keep Victor. It would still be messed up, but it would just be different.

But there is suspension of belief (which we all do when we watch soaps) and then there is storylines that are simply offensive to many. The gaslighting was interesting to me until Ashley fell down those stairs and lost her baby and Adam covered it up. That is when it crossed the line from being entertaining and creepy to being disgusting for me and I imagine many viewers, and it wasn't necessary to write that aspect of the story. They could have done the baby switch at the time of delivery. Was it for shock? To make the story even more disturbing? Why? What purpose does it serve?

Exactly! BAM!

To me, it's just that one person is doing it to another. It's disturbing to say the least. I'd feel differently if Ashely were the crazy one doing it to herself in an effort to keep Victor. It would still be messed up, but it would just be different.

Adam is permanently ruined now I so don't trust this writing regime to write a compelling redemption arc that will last years.

I fully expect the Who Killed Adam murder mystery to happen by November sweeps.

This show is disgusting.

Well, where do you think the fetus went? We saw Adam burning Ashley's nightgown and the towel covered "in all that blood" in the fireplace. He would need to get rid of any evidence very quickly. ED said there is no fetus still in Ashley so they don't have to deal with infection, so therefore it doesn't take much to reason Adam burned the fetus.

OIC - well it's not like they showed it or even referred to it. They left it to the imagination. This is the setup for a longterm umbrella story - I can sense it. Cara mia called it! I expect Y&R to craft something big, twisty. i also expect Y&R to do something provocative.

Look - when you're competing with cable, gritty news, and even prime time which has upped the ante so much in terms of shock and realism - and hell reality shows! Y&R has to stay relevant. it doesn't have the luxury of being one of 4 options for most Americans to watch. Some don't agree with it and i get it, but it was necessary for Y&R to survive. The long, slow pace of the old days just won't cut it. And MAB has blended the electricity of the history of the show with the current pace and tone of dramatic serials like Desperate Housewives and Grey's Anatomy.

I don't get this relevant argument. Up until Jack Smith was ousted in 2006, Y&R told the types of slow paced stories it had always told, and the show was still #1 and had higher ratings. That wasn't even that long ago.

Sad, but at this point, I'd welcome Smith back, though he had his problems, I'd take him over LML and what we have now.

Edited June 16, 200916 yr by Y&RWorldTurner

Was it for shock? To make the story even more disturbing? Why? What purpose does it serve?

Some people like shock and gore and all that. And you know what? Good for them. There's a place for all tastes. My issue that Y&R's audience is not made up of 12-year old boys who like to be grossed out. Cause if you REALLY like being grossed out, you're not watching Y&R, you're renting Hostel. It's about knowing your audience. This is not vintage Y&R. It's something of nadir as far as moral taste is concerned.

Adam is permanently ruined now I so don't trust this writing regime to write a compelling redemption arc that will last years.

I fully expect the Who Killed Adam murder mystery to happen by November sweeps.

This show is disgusting.

I'm not under the impression that they are interested in doing that either. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised, but I doubt it. Adam is a character that I've waited YEARS to show up in GC and shake up the show. If they kill him off and the character has been completely wasted in the course of 18 months, I'm going to be extremely PISSED.

Y&R is still #1 - but for a while it wasn't buzzed about. Y&R by and large is getting more and more exposure and it's storylines are generating ink and hits on the web. Those numbers can be quantified to the fact that Y&R is the only show to gain viewers this year. Sure LML took a lot of them away, but Y&R is thriving. Maybe grandma isn't liking it but colleges routinely have YAR viewing nights - well one that i know of at least, USC. That's the lifeblood of soaps! New watchers. Look at this thread alone - during sweeps it routinely was getting 50-60 pages. Provocative works and is working. Long term? Who knows. Could backfire! But if you do a twitter search for Y&R - there's thousands of tweets a day about the show.

And like I said before - this show does catharsis, reunion and joy so well - that by Christmas i think we'll all be singing its praises with egg nog and cara mia in a Santa Baby suit! That's my prediction!

Edited June 16, 200916 yr by Cashton

Yuck, thankfully Rahcel Kimsey is going to be on DAYS soon. She never fit in as Mac, she would have been better as another character. They totally changed Mac to fit her, which wasn't cool.

they made Mac pretty and light and bubbly and fun. People hated.

They took Mac is being blah plain ordinary kind of bitchy but not in a good soapy way. never can do wrong. and all that other [!@#$%^&*] she was before. fans hated it.

Mac just sucks as a character. No mater what. No matter who in the role.