I have no empathy for someone who walks off a good paying job, in this economy, and cannot coherently explain his reasons why. Why should I empathize with him? I empathize with those struggling to meet ends meet. Not novice actors who feel that their artistry is above this writing material. I don't feel like he was being threatened or doing anything immoral, which would lead for it to be a compromise of his believes. IMO this was just a selfish, juvenile, and stupid reason, whether it be story wise or over an alleged kiss.

But we're not talking about your empathy. We're talking about people who may feel for him and people getting branded homophobic because of it.

But now we're generalizing. Both gay and straight people go after what they believe to be an "injustice." Five or so gay people does not represent the entire population. I know there is a lot of ignorance in the world, but I would like to think that people can make rational decisions without responding to stereotypes.

If you'll notice, I didn't say ALL gay people. I said "the gay people who..."

True. Honestly, I don't think Nelson will have a huge impact. Plus, who takes a GOSSIP columnist, especially PEREZ seriously? I sure as hell don't.

The same people that make shows like ET, The Insider, and TMZ syndie successes?

Craft as an artist? He was a virtual unknown before Y&R.

Just because someone is relative unknown doesn't make them any less of an actor or an "artist."

The homophobe angle comes from the idea that ENgen knew his story would take a "gay" turn and bolted. No, he shouldn't be forced into a story, but he should have known damn well that this is not a movie role. He is on daytime the scripts and character will continue to learn, change, and hopefully grow.

But we don't know if Adam is gay or if he's bi or even if he's raping Rafe! According to NuGina's Twitter, Adam's being written as a very dark character.

Again there is more going on. But this is a soap opera message board, and it relates to the daytime community. For other issues, there is an OT section. I always see people want to discuss issues but when we do they tend to shy away from it and get emotional. So my solution, start a topic and let's get discussing.

No one is saying that it ISN'T a soap opera message board. I'm well aware. But this has veered off-topic into a more political/social debate that has everyone casting their irons in the fire. Should this thread be moved to the OT lounge, since some in the thread are personally pointing fingers at who's a homophobe and who isn't?

Wrong choice of words. Post still stands.

Maybe, but the language in this thread is so combative it prevents reasonable disagreement. I've been labeled a homophobe purely because I don't think Cris Engen committed an injustice, so that's why I singled out that part of your post.

If you're only going to quote parts of my post, then what's the point. I already stated what I said.

1.) Why should I empathize with those who continue to defend an actor who "by choice" quit his job? Still, not feeling for anyone. I also have not labeled anyone.

ETA: I just think Engen made a selfish stupid move.

2.) I know you did not say ALL that's why I added "5 or so people..."

3.) Yes, everyone likes gossip, but who gives them the ammunition? If you're a celebrity you're going to be put in the spotlight whether good or bad.

4.) Read the rest of the post, I said that...

5.) Yes, but given the circumstances and his wanting to work more, the assumption can be made for that being the reason he left. Again, only Engen knows.

6.) No, put you kept mentioning other issues. Fine enough, let's discuss those other issues facing the gay community elsewhere, and concentrate on the topic at hand.

Maybe, but the language in this thread is so combative it prevents reasonable disagreement. I've been labeled a homophobe purely because I don't think Cris Engen committed an injustice, so that's why I singled out that part of your post.

Fair enough. I'm trying to be as reasonable as I can here tho.

Edited May 28, 200916 yr by MTSRocks

I'm going to say I don't think what CE did was necessarily wrong or right as far as I'm concerned. He made a decision for himself that I don't believe should personally affect anyone on here.

^^^It doesn't affect me personally one bit. Just commenting on the story.

If you're only going to quote parts of my post, then what's the point. I already stated what I said.

No one is saying that you didn't state what you said. I just replied to it. Whether you think I did an effective job of that, well that's your deal.

^^Ok.

But who is saying that he definitely didn't leave over the kiss? People are either saying that we don't know everything that lead up to his leaving or that he definitely left because he's a homophobe and that's it.

That's what I was thinking too.

This thread is either filled with those that say he did.

Or those that say we don't know.

I have not seen one person that said NO he didn't leave over the kiss. In fact not on any board I have been too have I seen one.

I can't prove that HE didn't leave over it. The info is way too ambiguous to say what he left over. There are way too many possibilities.

^^^It doesn't affect me personally one bit. Just commenting on the story.

I'm speaking to the people who want to attach labels to the man because he made a decision. There is not even full evidence of facts. To me that sounds like taking it personally

Let's just say that Chris Engen comes out and says that he loves the gays and decides that he'll shoot a porno with Yani Gellman if that's what the job calls for. Okay. What then? About 23% of Y&R's viewers quadruples the sales of Kleenex, and Engen is invited to have siestas locas at the homes of Nelson and Perez. And Proposition 8 still stands in California.

OMG

Unfortunately, in the last few years, the gay community has taken on a rather petulant "you're either with us or against us" mentality that's getting more and more narrow by the day. Who knows what the exact reason was for his quitting. I doubt we'll ever know, or if we do find out, it'll be long after anyone still cares. But if his reason for leaving actually was the kiss thing, then I don't hold anything against him for it. It was his decision and the show has seemed to move on w/o missing a beat. The character and storyline continues. What's the problem? He had a right to not like or be comfortable with that particular character/story direction, and to opt out because of it. Engen being willing (or not) to play gay does not validate (or invalidate) any real gay people out there. Our (and I say that as someone who *is* gay) lives will not be any better or worse because of a daytime actors self-imposed story limits. Why people are taking this as some kind of personal affront to them, I don't know. Anytime any public figure does the slightest thing that could even barely hint that they may not be a pronounced supporter of the gay community, some people in it become like Nazi's out to destroy them, while others choke on the air while gasping at their "nerve."

I recently quit my job recently because, as a support technician working for a company contracted to offering support to Sears, I was told by my bosses that I would soon have to support (Sears-owned) Kmart operating systems as well. Since K-Mart technical environments are especially problematic and convoluted, I rejected the idea of having that added to my plate. I didn't have the option to say no and keep the job, so I quit. I wonder if the employees/shoppers would consider me a Kmart-phobe for choosing to walk.

I'm not an expert in social movements, but I think this "with us or against us" is a phase in such movements. It is an activist/militant phase...kind of like Black Panthers in the 1960s.

Thus, while I agree with you and many others here that this kind of black-and-white non-compromise thinking is problematic, I think it serves a social value in the evolution of social thinking. Polarizing talk forces people on the fence to choose sides. And once that happens, it makes it clearer who is "pro" or "con" your topic...and that helps you purify your message as time goes on.

I would also mention that a lot of people here toss the word "agenda" around like it is a bad thing. Well, in my life (and I'm not talking about Engen...I'm talking about meetings and I'm talking about career plans and I'm talking about how I structure my day), agendas are a very good thing. I'm kind of curious about when having an "agenda" became a bad thing?

Lastly, let me ask this open question. Let's say a straight actor refuses to kiss a female co-start because she is obese. Let's even make her morbidly obese. She's drowning in rolls of fat! And the straight actor is icked out. Even though the script calls for him to kiss her, he cannot bring himself to kiss her because of her gelatinous form.

Does this make him anti-fat? Does he have a problem with fat acceptance? Shouldn't he, in his role, be able to kiss her despite her largeness?

Can we really say that, because he is icked-out by obesity, he is not prejudiced against fat?

I don't know the answer...and I'm not suggesting that Engen quit because he didn't want to kiss a dude (we don't really know). But I do think there are some parallels that should make us think.

Can you be icked out about kissing a morbidly obese woman if you do NOT have a problem with obesity?

kind of like Black Panthers in the 1960s.

Eh. No.

To me that sounds like taking it personally

It's the timing of his exit.

I'm not calling anyone else here a homphobe. I am calling Chris Engen a homophobe. When you're willing to ruin your livelihood and your family's over having to play mild gay content with another actor, that is not about "artistic integrity," especially not after all the other crazy or if you prefer, stupid [!@#$%^&*] Adam has done. That's homophobia. I don't really give a [!@#$%^&*] if people think that is reactionary or unfair, because it's not. It's a logical conclusion to come to, and people don't want to face it because they'd rather talk about gay militias or Perez Hilton's fat face or the writing on Y&R or uppity minorities targeting another poor straight person who just came into work as a professional actor and shouldn't have been expected to, you know, act.

None of that really matters. If you want to call me a radical for stating the obvious, logical conclusion, that's fine. He was homophobic, and it cost him his job. This may be difficult for some of you to grasp, but I happen to think gay people can walk and chew gum at the same goddamn time. We can focus on larger, important social problems while also calling bullshit on offensive, homophobic media incidents such as this. We have in the past to positive results. Calling Chris Engen what he is does not put me in the Perez Hilton camp of some false equivalence you seem so desperate to draw between warring camps of "Perez Hilton" or "Harvey Milk." I'd rather we follow Milk's example, but Milk also knew how to use media and draw attention to media issues in order to improve GLBT relations (unlike Perez Hilton). If something like this came up in California back then, I'm sure he'd have had something witty to say about it. But it seems that today, he'd get finger-wagged by this board for daring to comment in what I'm sure would be called "a stereotypically gay and negative way." The best way to deal with these problems today, apparently, is for us to continue holding $500-a-plate charity galas honoring crap like Bianca and Reese or Grey's Anatomy where nothing gets accomplished, then sitting on our hands while other homophobia slips through the cracks because we don't want to look like those kind of homosexuals.

Edited May 28, 200916 yr by Vee

If you could prove to me 100% that is why he quit I would say yes.

No one and I mean no one has proven yet that Chris Engen truly quit over the kiss. Even his statement and all the rumors are way too ambiguous to say that it is the sole reason he quit.

As I said to even make the point some of them have to read between the lines to make that point in his statement. And different people have interpreted what he said different ways. Even the choice part - some think he means that homosexuality is a choice while others think that he means the choices an actor makes. Many are of the impression he quit because of the dark direction of the character which makes it a stupid decision at best, while others are so sure that it is the kiss that they have labeled it a homophobic decision. Even Errol pointed out the fact that in coming weeks Adam has some pretty evil stuff to do. And we have had rumors for awhile now that he had problems with the direction of his character.

Add to it the fact that the only and I emphasize the only source of this information is Nelson's source. No one has quoted another source - NO ONE. There are not rumors of other people saying this like it was with the Days stuff. SOD and SOW and Carolyn Hinsey haven't even touched it.

The problem is that he never denied not quiting because of the kiss. Yes, there are more bigger issues like Bellcurve said but this a soap message board not a board about gay guys losing their jobs because they are gay.

So as long as it stays this ambiguous I refuse to become another Jerry Falwell and accuse a man of something that I can't say 100% he did. If I do I become no better than one of the judgemental bigots that I want no part of.

And as Bellcurve put it, I refuse to string a man up by his hairy balls on ambiguous at best evidence. And I guess according to the new gay representatives that makes me a homophobe.

Well my post didnt go through. Steve, CE never denied that he didnt leave because of the kiss. That is the big problem here. Bellcurve is right there are more important things but this isn't a board about gay guys losing their jobs because they are gay.

Edited May 29, 200916 yr by Ruxton Hills