1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

It seemed like Irna, and to a lesser extent Bill Bell, were attempting to take all of the tropes used in soaps and add more controversial elements (or for 1964 standards).

Problem was that the 1964 characters were too trope..or copies of previous Irna characters without anything new.

Mary Matthews was a warmer Nancy Hughes.

Granny Matthew's was a female version of Papa Bauer and Hughes.

Janet Matthews was a less developed Edith Hughes.

Susan and Pat Matthew's were variations of Penny Hughes  and Ellen Stewart.

Liz Matthews was a colder Nancy Hughes/Claire Lowell combination.

Alice Matthew and Russ Matthews seemed like a young siblings that were the greek chorus.

I think had the bible been followed more..it would have been an interesting show..but Irna's neurosis and P & G being so conservative hurt the show in the early months as it struggled to find its footing.

Nixon helped focus the show by using some of her AMC bible..and also bringing out the psychological elements Irna was intending.  She created Lahoma, Rachel, Sam, Ada, and helped develop Missy...which was the have not section of the show to play off the Matthews/Randolphs/Curtains as the haves.

And not only did start Alice/Steve/Rachel...she made Bill/Missy popular... and depend Lee's character into a tragic anti heroine in the Sam/Lahoma/Lee triangle.

Interesting observations.  And then a year later, NBC asked Irna to do it again, and create another ATWT clone - Days of Our Lives.  DOOL also had many parallel archetypes, and also had a very slow start before gaining popularity.  

21 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Guiding Light is the only one I can think of, shifting focus to the Bauers in the late '40s. 

After TGL lost several of its original, key players in the 1940s, there were several characters isolated in their own individualized storylines. There wasn't as much of a "homey" feeling as with the Ruthledges and Kranskys at center stage. I believe Irna Phillips, understanding soaps and the audience so well, knew that having a central family at the core was important, hence the introduction of the Bauers. It ended up being a savvy move, since the show enjoyed huge success for decades afterwards, with the Bauers at its core. The audience once again had a central family to call their own.

21 hours ago, Neil Johnson said:

Yes. I wonder if Irna Phillips was writing GL during the make-over?  If so, that would be another case of the creator making the changes.   

Nixon didn't really change the cast of characters drastically. But she certainly improved the writing.  In terms of cast, she really just got rid of 3 or 4 members of the Gregory family, and introduced Ada, Sam, Rachel, and Steve.  Nixon made AW perhaps the best soap on TV while she was there.   

Yes, Irna Phillips was the one to weave the Bauers into TGL, starting in 1948. She knew her own show and what it needed, which is why her choices were beneficial to the series.

And you are right: Agnes Nixon did not make sweeping or damaging changes when she took over AW. She simply corrected the ship's course by writing out a few of James Lipton's tepid characters and introducing some inspired new ones of her own and attaching them to the show's core Matthews family. She got back to basics, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

Agnes Nixon did not make sweeping or damaging changes when she took over AW. She simply corrected the ship's course by writing out a few of James Lipton's tepid characters and introducing some inspired new ones of her own and attaching them to the show's core Matthews family. She got back to basics, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.

When I suggested her tenure as a reinvention I was not using it in any negative sense. If she had not done what she did, when she did it, likely the show would have been canned without ever making it to the 6 year mark. When people talk about someone saving a soap, Agnes at AW with the Rachel-Steve-Alice triangle was a soap savior. 

20 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Oh. That's odd if so because I don't know if the Gregorys were any more notable a core family than others who just lasted a few years, like the Sheas, or most of the McKinnons, etc. But I have not seen anything of their era. 

In no way were the Gregorys a core family. They were simply an unmemorable blip on the radar. It's like making a claim that the Rosales clan was a core family on Y&R. Um...no.

20 hours ago, soapfave06 said:

AW was never my soap but some of the time periods fascinate me, as well as its rise and fall. Would the exits of George and Jacquie long-term have caused them to fall off in the late-70s or would that more so be the 90 minute experiment? Perhaps the show was in a good place once they were recast but the thrill wore off on top of the 90 minute experience? 
 

That’s one thing I don’t understand is how they squandered Courtney’s return in 1984, if they positioned that well with some good marketing, it could have set them up well for years to come. 

AW continued to ride the wave of immense popularity that it had enjoyed for years under the Nixon/early Lemay years, but as the writing deteriorated in the mid-late 1970s, and as the competing soaps steadily climbed in the ratings, AW began to suffer noticeably. As someone recent said (was it Neil Johnson?), viewers will stick around through weak writing out of loyalty to beloved characters, but with bad writing AND the elimination of so many important, cherished characters, there wasn't a lot of incentive to stick around Bay City anymore. The 90-minute format might have just been another nail in the coffin. And...NOBODY has ever understood why and how TPTB bungled Jacquie Courtney's return in 1984 so badly. The incompetence of underusing and misusing her (and giving her the worst haircut known to man) is unfathomable. All we do know is that writer Gary Tomlin later admitted in a interview that he did know the character's history very well and did not know how to use her well.

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

(and giving her the worst haircut known to man)

I think the terrible job they do all the time with Ari Zucher on DAYS is worst ever hair. 

1 hour ago, Neil Johnson said:

Does anyone know who was head-writing As the World Turns when Lisa and Alma were created?  Could Agnes Nixon have been involved?  I've always believed Lisa and Alma (in their early years) to be quite similar to Rachel/Ada and Erica/Mona.  Any possibility Nixon might have created Lisa/Alma?  

Lisa was all Irna Philips. 

Agnes Nixon was headwriting GL when Lisa came on to ATWT

Edited September 16, 20232 yr by AbcNbc247

16 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I do think Russ had the potential to be a more interesting character than he was (RIP David Bailey but what I've seen of his time in the role felt very much like the usual self-righteous "good guy" - not sure how Sam Groom was but I wish they'd tried a fresh approach).

Sam Groom was so handsome, so noble and so appealing as Russ. The actor somehow made the character an ultra-good guy without Russ being boring, trite or a cliche. Hw was excellent. Neither of his replacements ever did the character justice, IMHO. With Groom, Strasser, Courtney and Reinholt on board, the show was golden.

13 hours ago, Paul Raven said:

The myth of the Gregory family taking over. It was constantly mentioned that Agnes killed them off in a plane crash.

Even in published history books, there is a lot of information about the soaps which is inaccurate. It's long been reported that Pat Matthews killed her first boyfriend, Tom Baxter, by stabbing him to death. This drove me crazy whenever I read it anywhere, because Pat shot him; she did not stab him. I saw the original episodes. Years later, when Pat killed Greg Bernard, Harding Lemay's script reiterated the false myth that she had stabbed Tom with "a letter opener or something." Argh.

6 hours ago, Neil Johnson said:

Do you feel this was solidly confirmed?  Are you aware one of the existing scenes from that day's episode actually includes Pat, Dennis, and Louise (along with Alice and Steve)?  So to me, that seems to confirm the episode was not a two character episode.  Unless I'm misunderstanding something.  

I am 100% sure of the fact that although the original script had other characters set to appear that day, Paul Rauch made the decision after the script had already been written to cut out the other actors from the episode, lengthen the Steve-Alice scenes, and only have Reinholt and Courtney appear on screen. I watched it live at the time and  remember it very well. Plus, it was talked about and lauded in the soap press at the time, and Courtney did an interview about it. Even Paul Rauch put his two cents' worth in. The existing scenes with Pat, Dennis and Louise took place on the same "Bay City day" as the two-hander episode, but were broadcast in the NEXT DAY's television broadcast. The material available on youtube has a lot of clips lumped together in one upload; that does not mean that all the scenes came from a single day's NBC broadcast.

Plus, the two-hander Steve-and-Alice episode was confirmed in the article from Daily TV Serials posted a few pages ago in this thread.

Edited September 16, 20232 yr by vetsoapfan

Guiding Light had been off the air for 6 months when it returned in 1947, this time on CBS. By the end of the NBC run the Kranskys and Rutledge's were gone .

The NBC version was a new story that lead to the introduction of Meta Bauer and then the Bauer family. I guess at some point, Irna decided a core family was necessary. She had used the Schultz family a few years earlier on the second version of Today's Children  and maybe modelled the Bauer's on them.

6 minutes ago, Paul Raven said:

Guiding Light had been off the air for 6 months when it returned in 1947, this time on CBS. By the end of the NBC run the Kranskys and Rutledge's were gone .

The NBC version was a new story that lead to the introduction of Meta Bauer and then the Bauer family. I guess at some point, Irna decided a core family was necessary. She had used the Schultz family a few years earlier on the second version of Today's Children  and maybe modelled the Bauer's on them.

Right, with a new network and canvas, it was not surprising that Irna created a new family upon which to build the show in the late 1940s. Families being at the heart of her dramas was a staple for her.

I was posting my 3 favorite Anne Heche AW videos elsewhere so you get them too! 

 

Another World's tribute video montage to Anne Heche, aired June 30, 1991, her second to last day. Lyrics by Leonard Cohen, cover by Jennifer Warnes

It was scripted & rehearsed that Anna would slap Anne but not that Anne would slap her back. Anna's reaction is actual shock, outrage, etc.!!

 

 

6 hours ago, vetsoapfan said:

And you are right: Agnes Nixon did not make sweeping or damaging changes when she took over AW. She simply corrected the ship's course by writing out a few of James Lipton's tepid characters and introducing some inspired new ones of her own and attaching them to the show's core Matthews family. She got back to basics, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Think how many Emmys AW would have won had the Daytime Emmys existed during Agnes Nixon’s time as headwriter…

29 minutes ago, watson71 said:

Think how many Emmys AW would have won had the Daytime Emmys existed during Agnes Nixon’s time as headwriter…

Over the years, I've always found the list of Daytime Emmy nominees (and even some of the winners) to be quite...dubious, but in a fair world, Nixon's AW would have been drowning in statues!

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

Over the years, I've always found the list of Daytime Emmy nominees (and even some of the winners) to be quite...dubious, but in a fair world, Nixon's AW would have been drowning in statues!

Well, there is one person who is drowning in awards. Agnes Nixon got more acclaim than anyone else! Emmys sure, but much much more! Irna was without. 

A message from Mike McGavin re: the two hander.

If you could clarify to everyone that the weekly synopses are from various soap publications, but the daily synopses are directly from AW material being either show scripts or from watching those that were/are available

 

Both he and Eddie apparently are having trouble with the reliability of the info about the two hander episode.    Myself, I always find @vetsoapfan's accounts accurate, but Mike asked me to post the clarification. @DRW50 The article further supports the two hander, but they feel the soap press's multiple inaccuracies over the years, well you get it.

Just the messenger. 

 

 

1 hour ago, slick jones said:

A message from Mike McGavin re: the two hander.

If you could clarify to everyone that the weekly synopses are from various soap publications, but the daily synopses are directly from AW material being either show scripts or from watching those that were/are available

 

Both he and Eddie apparently are having trouble with the reliability of the info about the two hander episode.    Myself, I always find @vetsoapfan's accounts accurate, but Mike asked me to post the clarification. @DRW50 The article further supports the two hander, but they feel the soap press's multiple inaccuracies over the years, well you get it.

Just the messenger. 

 

 

I give up, LOL.🙄

All I can do is report the facts about an episode which I watched for myself first-hand, which I recorded on audiotape and listened to again later, and which was discussed at length in the soap press of the time (with quotes from Courtney and Rauch). If people who never even watched the show in 1973, and who--for whatever reason--cannot fathom the possibility that original scripts can be altered or revised before taping, there's little I can do to convince them.🤷‍♂️

I'll save myself the energy and stop reiterating the truth as I know it.😝

Edited September 18, 20232 yr by vetsoapfan