Dying Daytime? Dying Primetime!

[YRBB]

I have been thinking about how everyone is proclaiming daytime's death, citing plunging numbers and dipping quality, but aren't we witnessing the same thing happening to primetime, too? Sure, numbers on primetime are so much better, that's nothing to be disputed, and they have more money and more opportunities to have a better product out there. But, setting aside the lavish production of primetime shows (and some of them are really so greatly produced, they look so wonderful)--what do we have? How many shows actually have the perfect writing that we all so unstoppably demand from daytime? How many FRIDAY NIGHT LIGHTS are there out there?

Arguably, primetime numbers have been dipping too for the past couple of years. Back in the 2006-2007 season, the number one show should have 23 million viewers to be even eligible for that spot, now get 18 and you're fine. (A generalization, but not that far off). How come DVRs and TiVo's are cited as causes for the downfall, when daytime's just crap? I'm not saying daytime isn't in a horrible condition right now, because it is, but I have talked to many people on the internet, who seem to think that the state of primetime TV is just as horrible. Either it is procedural dramas, reality, or ABC primetime soaps (I may be a fan of DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES, an excellently produced show, with HUGE writing problems nevertheless). Especially the ABC PTSoaps, oh God. Full of "comedic" music, refusal to show any real drama, light-hearted ish most of them.

I don't know how much I agree with this, but it seems to me that Primetime TV is going down too and I have to wonder--is it just crap writing? What do you guys think?

[cct]

I think the problem is systemic. I agree primetime is suffering just as much as daytime. The scary part for daytime is that the numbers weren't as high to begin with, so...

The way we are watching television is changing. I haven't watched primetime television LIVE in YEARS, ever since I got a DVR, about four years ago. The only live TV I watch is when I'm just flipping around, like HGTV or Food Network or the like. (And when I do I instinctively reach for the FF button when the commercial comes)

I think younger people are watching more TV on the net. I also think more original programming is being done on cable stations, like TNT, AMC, and FX that people are tuning in to.

I'm not sure how soaps will survive. I used to think they might migrate to the Internet, but I'm wondering if fans would follow. Certainly the older, less technologically savvy will just forgo their "stories," but I think that older generation is dying off anyway (another reason for the decline of soaps).

My personal thoughts is that all of television will move into an On Demand format. If I want to watch DH, then I will call it up on my television and watch when I want, with the ability to pause, FF, and rewind.

ACNielsen needs to get hip to these newfangled ways of measuring viewers or face losing market share to some young upstart.

[DaytimeFan]

The industry doesn't like people to talk about the FACT that prime time on standard network television is hitting its twilight years because prime time ratings are very publicly discussed and must be disclosed in the viewbooks that go out to shareholders...major companies like Disney and Viacom can't do much to soothe worried stockholders when the whole prime time lineup is tanking. Daytime, frankly, is a small fraction of the pie and it still makes money, so nobody pays attention to it outside the daytime world.

Network television is on life support. It's over and it knows it.

[MarkH]

Great, great summary!

Well, let's deconstruct that JUST a bit.

Are you SURE daytime is still making money? Is this true across the board? I have this keen sense that parts of daytime are now losing money...GL, Days... Is this not true?

When you say "network television is...over...", I think a PARTICULAR broadcast model (over the air, local affiliates, a small number of core commercial-supported networks) is over.

I think new delivery models (broadly defined, digital and on-demand...which is what unifies everything from Youtube to Itunes to Netflix to DVRs) is exploding. That can STILL be "network TV"...just different.

I suspect we agree here. So, my sense is that the more accurate phrasing would be 'network television is evolving'.

[All My Shadows]

The same thing killing daytime is killing primetime. Homogenization, kthxbye. Everything's the [!@#$%^&*] same. Everything. ABC's little crop of romantic/comedy/drama shows that they like to call primetime soaps are all the same. CBS is full of crime/mystery/forensic shows. NBC has its fair share of them as well, not to mention their increasingly growing numbers of those sitcoms that are deemed "smart" and "not for the average TV watcher" just because they don't have laugh tracks and are shot like movies. FOX is the reality network.

What happened to variety!? Where is it!? It's totally gone. Everything wants to have continuing plotlines and soapy elements (and of course, I love soapy elements, but come on, it gets to be too much) and it seems like there's no such thing as a completely self-contained show anymore. Give me some crime dramas that aren't so damn serious. I love stuff like "Charlie's Angels" and "Hart to Hart" where the purpose of the show isn't to try to change the fricken world but to simply entertain. I miss Aaron Spelling's vision terribly. Terribly. That man knew how to make escapism.

Also, this [!@#$%^&*] that they do when they hold some shows back until winter or spring is ridiculous. Why can't they just let a season air from start to finish from the fall through the spring?

[DaytimeFan]

We definitely agree. I would say that network television, as we know it, is over. Done, Bye Bye, See You In the Next Life.

I am SURE daytime is still making money. I know it does, it says so in my investor's prospectus and those things are vetted to hell by legal departments because ABC, CBS and NBC are all public companies and they don't need any hassles from the SEC. What everyone needs to understand is that, once upon a time in the 70s, daytime made HUGE money. It supported the shows in prime time that took years to launch (that's why, back in the day, shows were given time to catch on, unlike now when it's 13 episodes of success or your out)...

Currently, daytime makes money, lots of it in actual fact and soaps in particular net ratings and more importantly demographics that other shows just don't get. Y&R, for example, attracts more affluent viewers in the daypart than the rest of the soaps, GH and B&B also attract these viewers. Take a look at the advertisements for those shows in comparison to the rest of the soaps, you'll see higher end brands, more upscale products...advertisers need these soaps because if they don't have them they will have a helluva time trying to attract affluent women who do not watch the majority of prime time television. I know, for instance, that On Star had a deal with Y&R a few years back specifically because Y&R viewers could afford that service. Keep an eye out for Botox ads featuring Virginia Madsen airing during Y&R, GH and B&B. I've already seen them, a product like Botox is one that is so very difficult to market because the demographic is specific, soaps really narrow down the audience like no other medium.

Tristan Rogers, in an interview with In the Zone ages ago, said that the ABC soaps fulfill a very specific set of demands and that ABC is actually happy with how their soaps fit into their business model. In the current climate of network television, a big rule is to not piss off your audience...that's why GL is still around because CBS does not want to be the company that killed the longest running show in history. That said, GL does not net good ratings or demographics and is basically supported by P&G advertisements. GL will get canceled, everyone knows that, nobody wants to admit when.

DAYS makes money too, with the way things are at NBC if it didn't it would have been killed instantly, no questions asked. Unlike CBS, which has good prime time ratings and can carry the burden of GL somewhat better, NBC can't afford to do that.

Essentially, the amount of profit the soaps produce has shrunk greatly...but they still make money and so long as there isn't another kind of program that can deliver better ratings and demographics (not necessarily for cheaper) there is some life left in daytime.

Prime time is whole other animal because there IS another way to get the kinds of ratings and demographics advertisers hunger: Cable. HBO, Showtime, FX etc get the kinds of numbers that many advertisers spend mucho bucks on. Soap Operas have yet to meet this competitor (aside from, of course, Ms Oprah Winfrey)

[phloeishot]

I think Primetime is doing much better than Daytime. Gossip Girls' ratings are up 41% this season.

Grey's Anatomy is doing well. Fringe is doing well. Dirty Sexy Money and Pushing Daises are popular.

These shows have good writers, strong female characters and they give the audience what they want.

Daytime seems to love to torture its audience and the writing sucks. On DOOL and many other soaps the female characters are weak. Who wants to watch that?

[EricMontreal22]

The thing too is daytime now basically just means soaps (shows liek The View are doing relatively fine--price is right too i assume). Primetime is way more diverse and the networks seem more willing, and to know, of more different type sof programming to help some of that decay...

Again it's relative. Pushing Ds and DSMoney actually are doign worse than they were last year (with DSM havign the least fall off--Private PRactice has had some too) partly for not being on the air since the strike. Fringe is sorta a cult hit but it's not a huge hit.

[Paul Raven]

Some nightime numbers

Pushing Daisies 3.6/6

Dirty Sexy Money 4.1/7

Lipstick Jungle 3.6/6

One Tree Hill 2.2/3

Gossip Girl 2.3/3

Daytime ratings don't seem so bad when you look at the numbers for these hyped shows.

What is the average budget for a prime time show vs 5 eps of soaps?

[phloeishot]

Do you have the rating for Grey's Anatomy?

[Paul Raven]

Grey's Anatomy last week scored a 9.6/14

CSI beat it with a 11.6/18

[quartermainefan]

Grays Anatomy is not doing well. That show lost 25% of its audience from last year, and it lost last year a portion from the year before. That is a show which was briefly a hit, now resides in the top 10 because nothing of merit is on to take its slot, and is a show that thought it could be a watercooler show for a moment, but fizzled. DSM is another show that got renewed in spite of its total lack of oomph, has tried to retool itself as more of a full fledged soap because it has nothing to lose. It's first episode had a rating of 7.4, by the end of its first season the rating was a 5.0 and ranked #54. Recent ratings have been in the 4.0 vicinity.

I can't say I have even heard of Pushing Daisies. Gossip Girls has become sort of a hit thanks to a really smart advertising campaign.

[All My Shadows]

I think GG is considered because it's doing well with the demographic that they want it to do well with. I once read somewhere that the WB (and I would guess the CW now too) never really cared about how well their shows did amongst the entire primetime landscape, but how well they did amongst their own shows. They sort of have their own standard, and I think it makes sense for them. They know who their audience is, I think, and they're not trying to conquer the world of television or anything.

[David V]

"Traditional" media- network TV, commercial radio and newspapers- are losing ground in the era of Internet, ipods, mp3s and cable TV. Those "new" media have taken ground at the expense of the old.

I think there's still quality on Primetime, and that Primetime seems to have avoided the mistakes that Daytime has made in digging itself into a hole. Most primetime shows still feature middle-aged characters, often less glamourous-looking, as front burner and don't obsess over eye candy and simple, stupid storylines in a misguided attempt to appeal to younger viewers.

Furthermore, the best primetime shows still have that air of unpredictability about them that is LONG GONE from Daytime. Someone said here that just by looking at a soap mag cover, you can find out a lot of what's going on. No such chance with Primetime. Look at the Law & Order franchise (which has seemingly carried NBC in recent years anyway), and more specifically SVU. SVU has this air of unpredictability, plot twists, etc that mean you MUST watch from start to finish to find out the whole story. Just when you think it's a done deal, there's always going to be something coming up that turns the whole episode on its head. That's what makes good Primetime drama.

[EricMontreal22]

Yeah I'm so glad things liek Buffy were on the WB--they wouldn't have laste don network tv. Gossip girl is also one of the most DVRed shows. it has a very very loyal following but a hit in the ABC/CBS/Fox/NBC sense--it wouldn't have lasted a week.

Maybe CW has to start having soaps--they'd be happy with a .5 rating

You kinda don't know what you're talking about

I'm NOT a Grey's fan at all, but it's still a hit that any other network woudl snap up if they could (you're right the ratings are slipping and it's definetly peaked). DSM's always done sorta ok in the ratings/demos--and cuz it was cut short by the strike ABC is giving it a chance (much liek Pushing Daisies which gives them reviewer credit)