ALL: Are you a Nixon or a Bell??

[Y&RWorldTurner]

Out of the two existing Irna soaps, I think GL and ATWT both bare more of a Nixon imprint than Bell imprint. And Though Bell is credited with saving DAYS', that show doesn't have a Bell imprint at all anymore, which it seemed cleansed of in the 80's, though JER's pacing could be as slow as Bell's.

[EricMontreal22]

Yeah the pacing is the only similar thing wbetween JER and Bell frankly. Bell LOVED slow burn stories (slow burn equals 5+ years often) Agnes moved at a fast clip in comparison (and to Irna)

[SteveFrame]

Remember that Agnes also learned from the TV soaps other magician Roy Winsor. She worked with him on creating Search For Tomorrow and then wrote the show for the first 13 weeks.

Bell never worked for anyone else but Irna in learning the soap format.

Roy Winsor is probably the most overlooked person in the history of soaps. He created 3 long running soaps - the first 2 successful TV soaps - yet he is hardly ever mentioned.

He is overlooked in very much the same way the Hummerts and Elaine Carrington are in regards to helping to define soaps and their history.

[EricMontreal22]

But didn't she have difficulty with him? In that GREAT three hour youtube interview with AGnes that Marlena Delacroix did for the Museum of TV and Radio, she sorta hints that it was not a happy time which is why it was so brief and actually in her polite way skirts over the issue.

[Steve]

ITA.

I'm a Nixon because I prefer her blend of humor, drama and social issues; however, I've watched Y&R off and on over the years (especially the first half hour before SoapNet picked it up) and I've never seen a writer do pay-offs as well as Bell. I'll never forget Victor and Ashley's thunderstorm confrontation after she had the abortion (I think it was in 1986 or 87?) or when Victor came back after his carjacking to find Jack running his company (1993 maybe?).

[AMCGio83]

Nixon fan here. One thing I always used to love about AMC was the general feel and tone of it. Nixon's AMC had a gossipy small town feel to it. Characters sitting around at the Glamorama gossiping or talking about important things elsewhere. It always felt very real. Y&R has always seemed very cold to me. It's genuine class all the way but there's always the sense that everyone is perpetually in hair, make-up and wardrobe, that nobody ever eats a cheeseburger and that these people are not one's friends. Compare Y&R's nice housekeeper Esther with her neat little uniform and make-up to AMC's Winifred, Carmen and Naomi (those two times). Esther definately belongs in Genoa City while the others are very PV.

[King of Pine Valley]

I'm a Nixon because her stories are overwhelming and the characters she created are wonderful.

When Nixon was the head writer for "Another World," she introduced us to Rachel, who is considered to be an earlier inspiration for AMC's Erica Kane and I do believe Robin Strasser (now Dorian on OLTL) did a good job playing bad. She was truly the one who brought that character to life.

But after Strasser left and Victoria Wyndham took over the role, Rachel started to go through changes once she married Mac and she became the show's most beloved heroine.

[cct]

I love when you all talk like this...

First of all, to answer the question, I am very clearly a Nixon. I appreciate realism in soaps. When we start heading into demon possession, serial killer islands, and plots for world domination, I'm outta there. (Which obviously proves I'm no fan of Days.) I can appreciate Bell. Every once in a while I will catch Y&R, and I respect it and even admire it, but I agree with whomever said that the characters are less like one's friends. The payoff thing, I don't get yet, maybe someone can youtube me, but I doubt I'd still get it, considering for a payoff to have weight you must have been invested for a long time.

Eric, I've heard you mention several times this interview with Nixon. Is this online somewhere? Can you hook a guy up?

Steve, tell us more about Roy Winsor. I know he was Secret Storm. Where did GH come from?

[All My Shadows]

I agree with Steve about Roy Winsor. He created SFT, "Love of Life," and "The Secret Storm," all of which had very, very healthy runs (35, 28.5, and 20 years, respectively). What I love about his soaps is that they seem to have had a really daytime-y type feel. They just seem, to me, to be cut from the same type of cloth that Irna's stuff was cut from, in that you had character who drank coffee more than water, you had agonizing domestic-type storylines, there were doctors and lawyers all over the place, and the people were pleasant characters, except for the decidedly bitchy ones (such as SFT's Eunice, LOL's Meg, and SS's Aunt Pauline and later Belle Clemens).

I love thinking about and talking about how certain soaps have a certain way about them that just wouldn't work well with other soaps. It kills the notion of "This soap should do with that soap is doing," which something people love to say. Y&R does business storylines better than anyone else. Case closed. But when it comes to romance that show can sometimes be as dull as dishwater. It was better during WJB's reign, but even then, I didn't look at Y&R as a particularly romantic soap at all. Bell soaps can do romance, though, as B&B's only damn storyline for 21 years has been a love triangle between two vaginas and a penis (though the penis and vaginas have been connected to various people throughout the years).

I know the type of atmosphere that you're talking about with AMC. Every now and then, they still give us little glimmers of that type of stuff, which I love. It's so fun to watch but it's also very practical. I'll never forget during Bianca's baby shower, Opal and Marian just randomly started gossiping about poor Edmund and his paralysis and next thing you know, we're in the hospital picking up with that storyline.

[AMCGio83]

Yeah and if you recall they were picking out baby names and one was Verla. It was a very AMC moment and then soon after there were these great scenes after Edmund died focused on Brooke and Maria. Very good balance of humor, history and tragedy and that was even under McTavish. Y&R always makes me feel rather white-trashy.

[SteveFrame]

I can't add much more about Roy Winsor than AMS has already provided. I will say that although he did not do alot of it on his early soaps he was equally adept at mystery. He did some of that at Somerset and wrote mystery books outside of soaps. he even won the Edgar Award for one of his mystery novels. His last stint was on the Christian Broadcasting Network show Another Life. I watched it during his run and it was the best of the whole run of the series to me.

He doesn't have the resume of soaps that Irna had but for the most part all of his soaps except Ben Jerrod & Hotel Cosmopolitan had healthy runs.

He got his start in radio just like Irna did. his first job was as director for Vic and Sade during the 1938-39 season. He later served as Supervising Producer of the Goldbergs, Kitty Keene, and Ma Perkins. He also served as director for Ma Perkins. He also was sucessful in primetime as well - even serving as Executive Producer for I Love Lucy for awhile.

His first TV soap was Hawkins Falls and it was the first TV soap to move from primetime to daytime. It was the first television soap opera with staying power. It last 4 years in daytime.

He disbanded his production company in 1969, and CBS took over The Secret Storm and it went downhill without Roy Winsor there. He served as a floating consultant for CBS for 4 years before joining Somerset in 1974. He then taught serial writing at college for 2 years. After his short stint with Another Life in 1981, he just sort of disappeared. He died in 1987.

Sadly when Soap Opera Weekly and Daytime TV both were launching Soap Opera Hall of Fames, I never once read or heard his name mentioned as being a possible inductee.

*****************************************

As to GH, it was created by Frank & Doris Hursley who were also from radio. Then moved to TV where they wrote Search For Tomorrow for several years before leaving to create GH for ABC. They served as headwriters of GH until 1975, when both them and longtime producer James Young were either replaced or left. Both had served in their positions since 1963.

Frank & Doris Hursley were the parents of Bridget Dobson.

[EricMontreal22]

CCT the youtube interview doesn't allow embedding--but here's part one and you can find all five parts from there http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AES7lBl1eyY

And here's the first of 7 (!) parts for Bill Bell http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGnQjYf2KY0

[EricMontreal22]

One controversy often done with Bell was the way he wrote rape. While his story sense was certainly better, I remember when people complained about McTavish always using rape in her stories and it made me think of a number of notorious rape stories from Bell on Days as well as his two own soaps--including helping to create the unfortunate "falls in love with her rapist" soap cliche (something of alegacy on DAYS all the way to at least Jen and Jack in the 90s if not now). With Bell's masterful handling of character everything was so deliberate and stylized I think it may have changed the impact of such stories, but... (and don't get me started on his weird penchant for incest)

Of course that's not to say Agnes hasn't had her share of both (and downright weird stories in general) but they did seem to be handled in a more realistic fashion--

[Cat]

Yes, as more a "Bell" person than a "Nixon" person (though also a Dobson and a Labine!), it has always been clear to me that the way WJB handled rape was not about rape at all. It was about secret desire with one person more "aggressive" in that desire than the other. This is a romantic fantasy.

I don't know whether it is because Bell was male (and I would never want to make that sweeping generalization!) or whether Bell was mining a story-telling quirk which had been prevalent in a lot of women's fiction and soaps up until then (come to think of it, rape only began to be seen as a crime of violence relatively recently, which is absolutely shocking!). I'm talking the same "quirk" which made GH the most popular soap ever in 1979-80. Playing to an audience's "rape fantasy" as opposed to the ugly truth. Honestly, the first time I saw rape portrayed on a soap was Eden's attack on Santa Barbara (late 80s) and, later, Liz's rape (movingly penned by Michele Val Jean, I think) on GH in the 90s.

[SteveFrame]

The only thing I have to give Bell credit for is that yes he did make Laura fall in love with her rapist on Days but it didn't happen overnight and it was dealt with.

Laura & Bill loved each other, then she fell for his brother when Bill pushed her away. When Bill returned he wanted Laura and one night while drunk he raped her. That was in 1968. For the next 4 years Laura hated Bill even though Bill loved her. They spent a lot of time talking about the rape and the affects it had on the family.

It was not until 1972 that Laura realized she loved Bill again - 4 years and alot of water was under the bridge.

When he used rape again - he was the editor and head writer but Pat Falken Smith was the main writer. He had Susan raped by her brother-in-law Eric which was in many ways a total repeat of the Bill & Laura story except for this time Eric was in love with Susan but she wasn't in love with him.

Bell did explore rape early on with Y&R too. In 1973 he had Chris Brooks raped. It was the first time that rape was dealt with as a total act of violence and was totally handled very well. Anthony Geary played the rapist. It was explored and dealt with very well even though the dialogue was typically bad for Bell and Alden at this time. Lots of statistics cited by characters and stuff like that. I do remember the mags making a big deal about it because it was the first time that a soap had show the legal ramifications of rape. There was a rape trial and during it all the emotional and psychological problems that Chris and her loved ones faced were dealt with too. It was esp. hard on Chris because she didn't fully believe in premarital sex as her boyfriend, Snapper, did. He seemed to be perpetually horny which was new for daytime at the time. Before that fans knew the soap characters had sex, but it wasn't seen or talked about. Chris and Snapper and Y&R changed that. Chris and Snapper talked about sex all the time. And the cast of Y&R introduced partial nudity and open mouth kissing to soap fans too. They had not seen their faves in shirtless shots on screen before that but Y&R brought that to soaps.

There was also another attempted rape early on too when Janice Lynde's character Leslie was put in a mental institution and a female guard I think it was made advances toward Leslie and then later a male nurse at the place tried to rape her too.

So yes he did deal with rape alot.