On 5/5/2023 at 3:08 PM, ReddFoxx said:

For fun I asked ChatGPT to write me a synopsis for a Knots Landing reboot and I was impressed how interesting this concept sounds. Granted I didn't mention any of the original characters so it didn't factor them in.

 

 

When AI does a better job of diversity and inclusivity than actual, human writers.

On 4/1/2023 at 9:18 AM, DRW50 said:

I never knew the Empire Valley story got such a negative response - to me espionage plots, no matter how muddled, are more interesting than, say, anything involving Joshua.

 

On 4/1/2023 at 11:40 AM, kalbir said:

As I pointed out before, Knots Landing is more community-based so its not the type of soap you'd expect to venture into action thriller/James Bond territory but I think they got Wolfbridge in season 5 right, Empire Valley started good in season 6 but became a mess in season 7, and Jean Hackney in season 8 was awful.

 

On 4/1/2023 at 2:50 PM, Soapsuds said:

I liked the Empire Valley story. I don't recall it get negative responses. You couldn't tell by the ratings as they were solid that season.

 

On 4/1/2023 at 8:21 PM, Vee said:

I would have to go back through the Tommy Krasker and other KL website interviews, because I know a lot of the creative personnel from those years discuss it (and I probably will go back when I hit S7). I think Richard Gollance or one of the other writers also did so in the comments section of Krasker's blog. Basically, from what I recall, the writers didn't entirely know where the EV story was intended to end up under the Dunne regime and when it supposedly went 'too far' in the following season the past team claimed a) it was not their intention, while the new David Paulsen team claimed b) they inherited it and were told by the network and/or David Jacobs to 'get rid of Empire Valley' as a first order of business. The ratings may have been fine, but the creative teams seem to have regarded it as a millstone for whatever reason. So far I have little issue with it as a story; I think it is intriguing and ahead of its time, if starting to get a bit cartoonish in places.

So it's a lot of fog of war, he said/she said on these long-ago details. I will dig back into it soon, but I'm sure others know more than me.

Let's just say that there are parts of the Empire Valley storyline that I loved...and then there are parts of the story that I didn't love, lol.

I think my biggest problem with the Empire Valley storyline is that it all felt too disconnected from the cul-de-sac and its' residents -- even more so than everything else going on at that time.  The Wolfbridge Group was such a complex entity that even David Jacobs himself struggled in interviews to explain it.  Yet, it turned into a fabulous umbrella story, drawing in most of the cast, with emotional stakes aplenty.  As a viewer, you're never 100 percent sure of what Wolfbridge is or what they do, but you know that whatever it is, it's scaring the [!@#$%^&*] out of everybody, and that's enough.  When I watched the Empire Valley storyline for the first time, I kept hoping that would happen again, that it would become another Wolfbridge, or Ciji Dunne, but it never quite did.

Did the producers know going in how the story would end?  I think they had an idea, yes, but I also know that story bibles aren't written in stone and that storylines often take on lives of their own.  So, it's possible that Empire Valley, as a storyline, just got away from them, and that they didn't know how to pull it back on track.

However, I will give the team props for not just sweeping it all under the rug and pretending like Empire Valley never happened, the way DYNASTY tended to forget about their stories once they were over.  IIRC, Gary's decision to blow up the complex carried ramifications, including people getting sick from water contaminated by the explosion, and even a murder or two that Mack investigated in the aftermath.  In retrospect, maybe it would have been better if they had forgotten all about EV and simply moved on, but you can't fault this show for attempting to make a silk purse out of what had become a sow's ear.

2 hours ago, Khan said:

However, I will give the team props for not just sweeping it all under the rug and pretending like Empire Valley never happened, the way DYNASTY tended to forget about their stories once they were over.  IIRC, Gary's decision to blow up the complex carried ramifications, including people getting sick from water contaminated by the explosion, and even a murder or two that Mack investigated in the aftermath.  In retrospect, maybe it would have been better if they had forgotten all about EV and simply moved on, but you can't fault this show for attempting to make a silk purse out of what had become a sow's ear.

Mr. Lee, the beloved groundskeeper who had been close to Karen and her family for years...offcamera. 

Still, better material than most of what Mrs. Lee got in her later years at Knots.

6 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Mr. Lee, the beloved groundskeeper who had been close to Karen and her family for years...offcamera. 

And Eric was rushed to the hospital after swimming in a contaminated pond.

The last 10 episodes of season 6 was to me the peak of Knots Landing and a highlight of those episodes was Ava Gardner's arc. Ratings for Ava Gardner episodes and how they compared to the rest of the primetime soaps and 1984/85 two rookie hits.

February 28, 1985: The Deluge, rating 20.3, 13th for the week. The Cosby Show (February 28: Back to the Track, Jack (episode 20); rating 27.0) was #1, Dynasty (February 27: Life and Death, rating 24.8) was 2nd, Dallas (March 1: Dead Ends, rating 22.6) was 7th; and Murder, She Wrote (March 3: Sudden Death (episode 17), rating 21.6) was 9th. No Falcon Crest on March 1.

March 7, 1985: A Piece of the Pie, rating 20.4, 11th for the week. Finished ahead of Murder, She Wrote (March 10: Footnote to Murder (episode 18), rating 19.7) and Falcon Crest (March 8: House Divided, rating 17.5). Dynasty (March 6: Parental Consent, rating 24.0) was 3rd and Dallas (March 8: Trial & Error, rating 22.4) was 6th. The Cosby Show was a repeat on March 7.

March 22, 1985: The Forest for the Trees, rating 16.0, 29th for the week. Dynasty (March 20: The Crash, rating 22.6) was 3rd. The Cosby Show was a repeat on March 21. No Dallas and Falcon Crest on March 22. Murder, She Wrote was a repeat on March 24.

April 11, 1985: Four, No Trump; rating 19.9, 11th for the week. Finished ahead of Falcon Crest (April 12: Devil's Harvest, rating 18.5). Dynasty (April 10: Kidnap, rating 24.5) was 2nd and Dallas (April 12: Terms of Estrangement, rating 22.1) was 6th. The Cosby Show was a repeat on April 11. No Murder, She Wrote on April 14.

May 2, 1985: A Price to Pay, rating 17.8, 9th for the week. The Cosby Show (May 2: Mr. Quiet (episode 23), rating 25.5) was #1, Dallas (May 3: Deed and Misdeeds, rating 21.4) was 3rd, and Falcon Crest (May 3: And the Fall, rating 18.3) was 6th. Murder, She Wrote season 1 finale was April 21. No Dynasty on May 1.

May 9, 1985: One Day in a Row, rating 19.2, 7th for the week. Finished ahead of Falcon Crest (May 10: Cold Comfort, rating 19.1). The Cosby Show (May 9: Cliff’s Birthday (season 1 finale), rating 24.1) was #1, Dallas (May 10: Deliverance, rating 22.6) was 2nd, and Dynasty (May 8: The Heiress, rating 21.9) was 3rd.

May 16, 1985: Vulnerable, rating 20.2, 6th for the week. Dallas (May 17: Swan Song (season 8 finale), rating 27.5) was #1, Dynasty (May 15: Royal Wedding (season 5 finale), rating 25.9) was 2nd, and Falcon Crest (May 17: Confessions, rating 22.0) was 4th.

I always thought the change of show-runners kind of hampered Empire Valley because it was first mentioned in season 6 back when Paul Galverston was alive.. and it became the focus of season 7 once a new show-runner came in.

Has anyone ever interviewed any of the people in charge in season 6 and 7 to find out what Empire Valley was supposed to have been.. and when it was decided to make it more of a Dynasty type of plot vs a more organic plotline.

Still... at least it wasn't as bad as the Tidal Energy company arc in Season 13 LOL  

37 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

Still... at least it wasn't as bad as the Tidal Energy company arc in Season 13 LOL  

Nothing -- and I mean NOTHING -- could ever be as bad (or as boring!) as Tidal Energy.  David Jacobs should have shown John Romano the door the minute the idea was proposed to him and Michael Filerman.

I suspect Empire Valley was always supposed to be a front for an underground espionage operation.  I just think the execution of that premise, along with everything leading up to it, got out of control.

On 4/6/2023 at 12:02 AM, Vee said:

A fun fact I didn't know, but which was revealed in the new Jane Elliot interview in the April GH thread: She did indeed audition for Abby in Season 2.

I love Jane Elliot, and I wish KL had figured out how to keep her and not saddle her with a dead-end character like Judy Trent, but I guess Donna Mills made too much of an impression on me to see anyone else as Abby.

By the way, another actor KL let slip through their fingers?  Robin Strasser.  Again, you've got an actor who can make you sit up and pay attention; yet, you give her a character that ends up not having much mileage beyond one, rather silly storyline.

On 4/1/2023 at 9:17 AM, titan1978 said:

That perm scene was improvised!  I recall Joan Van Ark talking about it during one of the reunions in the last 20 years.  They decided to add the perm instead of just talking over coffee or something more generic.

That was a good choice, as having characters just sitting and talking over issues can be rather static.  Having characters do stuff like giving home perms or folding laundry while dropping exposition and exploring emotions really helps the viewers feel connected to the characters onscreen.  The only times when sitting-and-talking scenes ever worked for me was David and Maddie on "Moonlighting," and that's because the bantering between the two kept the conversations from becoming dull.

Edited May 8, 20232 yr by Khan

Of the CBS primetime soaps, I think Knots Landing ended up casting the most former daytime stars as either part of the main cast or in short runs.

47 minutes ago, kalbir said:

Of the CBS primetime soaps, I think Knots Landing ended up casting the most former daytime stars as either part of the main cast or in short runs.

I was just thinking the same thing earlier today, @kalbir.  

In the beginning, of course, you had daytime vets Ted Shackelford and Jim Houghton in the cast; then, in the second season, there's Donna Mills, Jane Elliot, Barry Jenner (as Abby's ex-husband, Jeff Cunningham) and Allan Miller (as Laura's boss, Scooter Warren).  But there were also Alec Baldwin, Sam Behrens, Philip Brown (as Brian Johnston), Maree Cheatham, Jon Cypher (as Jeff Munson), Robert Desiderio, Kathleen Noone, Peter Reckell, Douglas Sheehan, Robin Strasser and Peter White.  And that's all off the top of my head.  I'm sure there were others.

As a matter of fact, I still remember spotting Vasili Bogazianos (ex-Mickey, EON; ex-Benny, AMC) and Warren Burton (ex-Eddie, AMC; ex-Jason Dunlap, AW; ex-Warren, GL) in different episodes as blink-and-you'll-miss-'em under-five-ish parts.

It's just a shame that they couldn't figure out more to do for JE and RS.  Once Gary and Judy's affair was finished, there was nowhere else for Judy to go that would have made sense; and as for Dianne, I think more could have been gotten out of her as Karen's producer and nemesis -- perhaps, bring in a son of hers, who bonds with the McKenzies and dates Paige, which makes Dianne more furious than ever -- but it seems as if they didn't have any use for Karen's talk-show career beyond that stupid stalker mess.

Edited May 8, 20232 yr by Khan

@Khan I spotted Jaime Lyn Bauer in a Season 10 episode.

CBS had so much of their own daytime talent that could have worked on their primetime soaps when the primetime soaps were at the height of their popularity but for whatever reason they ended up casting mostly former ABC/NBC daytime actors.

Edited May 9, 20232 yr by kalbir

On 5/7/2023 at 9:28 PM, Khan said:

Nothing -- and I mean NOTHING -- could ever be as bad (or as boring!) as Tidal Energy.  David Jacobs should have shown John Romano the door the minute the idea was proposed to him and Michael Filerman.

I suspect Empire Valley was always supposed to be a front for an underground espionage operation.  I just think the execution of that premise, along with everything leading up to it, got out of control.

On paper it sounded interesting and it did fit with early 90s California and their environmental forward thinking.

However, making it a start up company was the kiss of death plotwise.  Start ups are long hours, little money, wearing multiple hats, and always trying to get funding/capital.

I think it would have worked better if it was a product and/or start up purchased by Sumner so that Paige, Karen, etc could have been integrated  more into the story.

Only upside of the Tidal Energy story was that Gary lost the ranch..and Val/Gary moved back to Seaview circle...and Karen quit the talk show.  

14 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

On paper it sounded interesting and it did fit with early 90s California and their environmental forward thinking.

However, making it a start up company was the kiss of death plotwise.  Start ups are long hours, little money, wearing multiple hats, and always trying to get funding/capital.

I think it would have worked better if it was a product and/or start up purchased by Sumner so that Paige, Karen, etc could have been integrated  more into the story.

Only upside of the Tidal Energy story was that Gary lost the ranch..and Val/Gary moved back to Seaview circle...and Karen quit the talk show.  

It also didn't help that the actor who played Joseph Barringer was a total drip (no pun intended).

On 6/6/2022 at 11:22 AM, Vee said:

Ciji's musical performances [...] are nothing but bangers so far. The show clearly knows all it has to do is turn on the camera, move it around her a little occasionally and let Lisa Hartman rip.

I feel the same way about Gloria Loring on '80's DAYS, and Patty Weaver on Y&R.

I think it helped that KL was not a show that was tied to one business or industry the way DALLAS, DYNASTY and FC were.  DALLAS and DYNASTY focused on the oil industry, so having a character pop up every episode to perform musical numbers would have made no sense.  FC tried to incorporate music for awhile, I think, through Apollonia's character.  However, I don't think they were successful.

The difference between DALLAS and KL: one show was about archetypes; the other was about characters.

Edited May 10, 20232 yr by Khan

11 hours ago, Khan said:

It also didn't help that the actor who played Joseph Barringer was a total drip (no pun intended).

The only thing I liked about that character was his last scene where Kate told him he was a lousy lay. 

I agree the show could have done more with Robin Strasser. Sometimes I wonder if Robin's whole look and persona were too intimidating for getting on established shows for longer runs, although the main culprit was probably just ageism and sexism, or in the case of Knots, already having so many women in that age range. 

Good as Kathleen Noone was as Claudia (early on, anyway), I wouldn't have minded seeing Dianne put into Greg's orbit instead to fill some of the same purpose.