Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Vee]

That makes the abortive Michael Malone college scene "Love Center" ghost story at OLTL in '04 look restrained and dignified.

[DRW50]

 

I love how they keep repeating the same lines over and over...almost as much as I love those ridiculous high-waisted jeans on Michael Weatherly and PAS. And all those turns from the ghost like she's lost on Falcon Crest...

 

Who is the woman with Geyhart and "Sage" (or Stage)? 

 

Oh [!@#$%^&*] that's Ally. Sometimes I forget how different Laura Wright looked early on. Those tight closeups when she goes from one character to another make her look like she had a bad nose job...

 

For anyone who wants to see a bit more of that time period and hasn't already seen these clips around.

 

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This episode has some of the gaslighting story with Stacey.

 

 

[John]

Agnes wanted Sadie & Carla to move from Llanview to Cornith

[Vee]

Yes, we were literally just talking about that, John, check the thread next time before compulsively playing know-it-all.

[dc11786]

The May 1994 episodes were great. I’m glad they made it online. The real treat is watching Nancy Addison Altman’s Deborah Brewster make her way all over the canvas. DRW50, Deborah wasn’t new to Corinth in May, Nixon had brought her to town in December, 1993, but she had been bumped to contract when these episodes appeared. I loved Deb trying to land a job as Christopher’s nanny and then revealing that she had been born on the wrong side of town. In a fan fiction I toyed around with, Deborah was going to reveal that Steffi’s father was actually Dane Hammond, and I think this piece of history would have worked well in that story.

 

Also intriguing about the 1994 episodes was Wendell and Elizabeth Barnes, minor characters that Nixon introduced to create a sense of class conflict. Elizabeth’s appearance at Burnell’s (what a wonderful set!) was a nice treat. I didn’t expect her to pop up at the Alden mansion in the next episode. I think Wendell may have been on the board at Alden or held a position at the bank, or possibly both.

 

Nixon did a much better job integrating the cast. Steffi’s involvement with Clay was nice, and hopefully more episodes pop up because the summer becomes a real treat as Deborah’s attache is the start of the Cradle Foundation storyline which leads to a series of complications that should have driven at least a year’s worth of drama, but which was mishandled because Laurie McCarthy and Addie Walsh didn’t play some of the more obvious elements.

 

 

The June 1988 episode is definitely a strike episode, but there were some nice moments. I really enjoyed this interpretation of Jeff Hartman, business focused rather than psychotic. I know Trucker and Trisha were a big couple for this show, but I can’t help but wonder what this show could have done if it stepped outside the box. Trucker and Trisha was safe because the show had done it already with Steve and Trisha. If Trucker had been a con man who played on Trisha’s memories of Steve, I think that might have been a more engaging story especially given his background as Clay Alden’s chauffeur when the family lived in Maine. Also, the show needed another set of rich characters to interact with and Jeff and his brothers would have filled that role well.

 

In contrast, the November 1989 episode focuses on the Trisha / Trucker / Jeff stuff which is dramatic and well-produced, but was kind of the opposite of what Loving was suppose to be. I think the Alex / Clay dynamic was layered and complex, and the conversation between Clay and Alex were Clay says he wants to be a better father to Trisha is poignant, but complicated given what he’ll do to her when it comes to baby Tommy.

 

Also a running thread in both shows was Jack and Stacey’s crumbling, on-again, off-again marriage. It’s a shame they didn’t keep Curtis around because he would have fit much neater in the story given the history between Curtis, Jack, and Lilly, which again could have been used again in 1987-1988 story. I did like Rick and Clay’s moment where Rick admitted his feelings for Stacey. I had forgotten that Stacey went from romance writer to mystery writer. Lauren Marie Taylor has a nice presence, but Stacey needed a stronger identity. Even Trisha is involved in the production of Image. I think the writing is an attempt to do that, but it still feels a little off. Though, I do think it might have been more effective in the 1990s when they had her teach writing at the university.

 

The Egypt/Alex cliffhanger was brilliant. I can’t believe that they had been apart for 20 years and Egypt was still going after him. That was a bit much. I’m never really clear on the Clay / Alex switch since originally Clay was still in Paris with Trisha and Gwyn until December, 1984. I assume that when Alex arrives in town as Clay in 1987 it’s the first time he has been Clay. So, I guess he spent the years between Clay’s jungle years and Alex’s years as Clay working for the government.

[dc11786]

Regarding Minnie Madden, Carla and Sadie, and Janie Sinclaire. I think there are some elements of the story we should consider. I think Vee is right that Nixon intended to have Sadie in the Rescott family circle. I heard from someone years ago that the original intention was to reveal that Ava was the product of an affair Kate Rescott had with a black man, and that Ava would learn that she was in fact biracial. I imagine Nixon wanted to tie Carla Hall into that story as it would have been a powerful continuation of Carla’s own narrative to have Carla help another ambitious young woman come to terms with her race. Pure fan wank, but, by placing Carla in Corinth circa 1986, the show could have gone a different route with Lorna / Zach Conway story by involving Zach and Carla or even reshaping the Rob Carpenter character into a ward of Carla’s.

 

Also, Janie Sinclaire seems to be a chance to tell a bit of the original Ava Rescott narrative in the sense she seemed to be intended to be an African American social climber. Janie was initially involved with a criminal who kidnapped Angie Hubbard when she was sick and needed a transplant. Angie was held hostage and bonded with Janie, who she could tell had been abused in the past. When the situation was over, Janie followed Angie back to Corinth. In Corinth, Janie immediately became involved in a couple of different stories: she pretended to be Clay Alden’s lover/secret daughter in order to extort money from Cooper (who wanted to know the secret Deborah had used to blackmail Clay into marriage); when Janie was exposed, she had some tense moments with Frankie Hubbard; and Janie became involved with Buck Huston who was beginning to look for his daughter. Janie showed real potential to be an African American Erica Kane, but the show disposed of her in a plane crash. I believe the original plan was to kill off a pregnant Dinahlee, but, at last minute, they decided to go with Janie. This fulfilled Uncle Harry’s prediction from the “Ava Goes to Heaven” story earlier in the year.

 

Jumping back to Curtis for a bit. Ava did run Burnell’s in the 90s. Originally, Burnells was a part of Alden Enterprises as far back as 1984. In 1992, Addie Walsh revived the store and built a mystery around Ava and her secret boss. Around the start of the story, Walsh was dumped and EP Haidee Granger dictated story until Robert Guza and Millee Taggert arrived in the fall. Granger created Leo Burnell, an old high school pal of Ava’s who wanted to romance her. Based on history and story potential, Curtis Alden was originally intended to return in 1992 as the mystery boss who would seduce Ava. Curtis did return under Guza and Taggert in February, 1993, and was paired with Dinahlee, when she was on the outs with Curtis’ father Clay. Initially, the couple was drawn to the 1950s culture, which is why Curtis suggest they watch “Roman Holiday” in 1994 episodes. The problem was Noelle Beck left in March, 1993, neither actor hired during Taggert’s run was successful as Curtis. The show dumped Curtis in August, 1993, by having the character torch PINS! (the bowling alley that Dinahlee operated) leaving Louie Slavinksi trapped inside in one of Bernard Barrows final performances. In December, Nixon returned and we learned that Dante Partou (Tess’ Middle Eastern ex-husband) was keeping Curtis trapped in a cage.

 

Nixon plotted the Dinahlee/Curtis/Trucker storyline with some interesting strokes. To keep Trucker and Dinahlee apart, Curtis began leaving little signs around the Tides, Trucker and Trisha’s home, to indicate that Trisha was alive. Of course, the truth was Trisha was alive, but Curtis was unaware of this. When the truth came out in June, 1994, Curtis has a huge fight with Gwyn, who was tired of Curtis’ games. For the rest of Curtis’ time on Loving, he was fighting with mental demons. They were exacerbated by the presence of the two Jeremys and later Curtis was the initial suspect in the Loving murders because he and Stacey were suppose to have a date the night Stacey was murdered.

 

 

Jessica Collins left as Dinahlee in August/September 1994. Elizabeth Mitchell appeared right away in September dealing with Dinahlee’s miscarriage. In January, 1995, Trucker has Trisha’s grave exhumed and then goes to Rome to learn the truth (which I believe happens offscreen). Dinahlee delivers the news about Trisha wanting to stay in Rome and Trucker not returning (February/March 1995). Dinahlee sticks around a little longer to reveal that she is pregnant again and going to track down Trucker. I believe they did a nice send off between Dinahlee and Ava. I believe there was even a moment where Ava and Stacey bonded because neither had their best friend in town anymore.

 

Looking over DRW50’s Curtis synopsis, I’m reminded of a few things. I believe Buck was suppose to fly the plane solo to wherever its destination was. Curtis had rigged it so it wouldn’t fly, but it did, and Buck took Janie and Dinahlee with him. When Marcantel’s year was up, they did drop him to recurring, which didn’t make people happy. I’m not sure when he returned to contract or if he was off contract when her was murdered.

[Vee]

Fascinating stuff - thanks.

 

Per the Ava biracial thing, this is pretty OT but one idea I once toyed with when considering how to possibly bring the Grays/Halls back to OLTL was to have the secret an aged Carla was carrying (and hiding from a new generation of Halls) be the shocking truth about the Lords and Llanview: That Victor Lord had somehow stolen Sadie and Carla's family's birthright or fortune, and that the Lords themselves were descended from a member of Sadie's family, making them biracial(!) and making the Grays kin, thereby tying them inextricably to the heart of the show.

 

I opted for something along those lines vs. the more obvious angle, which was that Victor and Sadie could have had an affair long ago; I felt that played into too many old racist tropes about the rich white man and the black servant, especially with Victor having been revealed to be the kind of monster he was - I felt Sadie Gray would never have been with him.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Vee

[dc11786]

Interesting possibility, especially since (avoiding the racial element) that is what Nixon did with the Rescotts and the Aldens. Cabot's father had cheated the Sowolsky family out of some product that the Alden family used to make their fortune (it had something to do with canned foods I believe). Anyway, when Cabot came back from the dead, he felt sorry for what his family had done and turned the company over to Ava. This was an interesting development because I imagine it was intended to cause major conflict in Ava and Alex's marriage with Ava claiming her birthright and Alex's sympathies lying with his other family, the Aldens. Laurie McCarthy and Addie Walsh quickly wrapped the story up and had Ava give back the company, if I recall correctly.

 

Some other (final) random notes

 

I don’t think Janie knew Buck was her father. They did bond before she died, and I think she wished he had been a father figure to her. Janie’s mother, Pam Dawson, did appear after Janie’s death. There use to be clips online.

 

Trisha’s September 1995 return was precipitated by a phone call from Jeff Hartman. He phoned to announce that Trisha has suffered a miscarriage which caused her to break with the Crystal Hartman identity and search for her past.

 

Trisha left in March/April 1993. Trisha and Trucker had just remarried the previous November and the show brought on Buck Huston, Trucker’s half-brother by his father’s other family, to Corinth. Buck was a pilot who had done some shady deals in the Middle East and had been caught in a triangle with Tess Wilder Partou and Curtis Alden. When Curtis and Tess left the Middle East, Buck had been the one to fly them out. Anyway, Trisha was carjacked and presumed dead, but stumbled into a diner, used the name Crystal, and took work as a waitress. At the same time, Jeff Hartman was released from the mental hospital. Jeff stumbled into the diner, found Trisha and tried to get her to go to the Aldens. When he phoned the Aldens, no one answered; everyone was attending Trisha’s funeral. Jeff told Trisha of his plans to go to Rome and Trisha/Crystal went with him.

 

 

 

I think Jack was a more complicated character than written, or maybe portrayed. Jack wasn’t a biological Alden, but he was still the golden boy compared to others in his generation (Curtis and Lorna). I wonder if that insider/outsider element was played in the Rick/Jack rivalry, Rick an Alden by birth raised by adopted parents and Jack adopted by the Aldens. A Rick / Curtis rivalry could have been interesting too with one brother who practically raised himself and another raised without ever wanting for anything.

As a side note, Gwyn gave up Rick because her father (later reconned to stepfather) was a minister and Rick was conceived out of wedlock. Rick proved a delightful moment in the Alex/Clay story. Rick claimed Gwyn and Clay/Alex were his parents, but the blood test showed it wasn’t possible.

I like that Jack didn’t stay with Ava just because she had his child. That was a nice twist given the fact that the baby wasn’t Jack’s. I thought the Alex / Jack vs. Clay set up for the cosmetics company was also good. Overall, I just don’t think they ever really did enough digging with Jack’s psychological makeup to make him a compelling. Similarly, I think Stacey might have had similar issues.

One of the EPs in the 1990s was honest and said Perry Stephens was boring and replaced him with Christopher Cass. I don’t think this was the right move. The ties to the original story were so weak as it was, but eliminating Stephens was a mistake especially since Cass certainly wasn’t more compelling. All Cass as Jack did was some business stories (maybe the face cream that burned Isabelle?) and Dinahlee’s seduction of Jack, which failed.

In July 1992, Jack disappeared while boating with Stacey. Clay had just learned he was not Cabot Alden’s son, but Tim Sullivan’s. He planned on ruining the Alden family. When he returned in the fall, Clay set out to takeover AE, which meant marrying Stacey for her AE stock. To trick Clay into marriage, Clay used holograms of Stacey to drive her insane. Once Stacey was in Dunellyn (I think that was the name of the psychiatric hospital), Stacey and Clay married. Eventually, Jeremy was able to prove that Clay was behind the holograms. Stacey and Jeremy both grieved the loss of their spouses.

In the summer of 1994, Deborah blackmailed Clay into marriage with evidence of the Cradle Foundation, a group that was paying to take care of someone who was believed to be dead. Cooper was certain it was Jack and ran to Stacey and told her Jack was alive. Of course, it turned out to be Cabot Alden, but I believe others may have been alive as well. This should sound familiar to modern AMC fans.

Anyway, the show always seemed to toy with the idea Jack was alive, but Loving had a bad history of only having characters presumed dead in order to potentially reactivate story later starting with Roger Forbes.

 

That ghost story was filler. It was the product of the period where Haidee Granger was flying solo without a headwriter.

 

Staige Prince (Eden Atwood) was the head of the sorority that Ally pledged. She also dated Kent Winslow (Roger Howarth). After Howarth departed, Staige stuck around as a part of the younger set in a supporting capacity. Her bitchy character was mellowed. At one point, I believe Staige lost her money. She was dropped before Steffi arrived.

 

[danfling]

It is true that Ms. Nixon originally thought of Ava as bi-racial.  However, for some reason (perhaps on the opinion of co-creator Mr. Marland), this storyline was discarded.   Ms. Nixon, instead, used it on All My Children when it was discovered that Opal had once had an affair with an African-American man and that there was a son as a result.   (I think the son was named Adrian.)

 

It is also true that Lillian Hayman was offered the role of Minnie Madden.   I read an interview with Louise Stubbs in which she said that she had been all but cast as Minnie, but, then, the show was suddenly strongly considering another actress (who was Lillian Hayman) for the role.   The possible casting of Ms. Hayman was not originally intended.    However, executive producer (Paul Rauch) disliked Ellen Holly in the Carla role on One Life to Live.   He told her that her voice (which was a natural wonder in my opinion) was horrible and that she should begin seeing a voice coach.   He also said that she should cut her hair because most lawyers her age would have short hair.   (I tend to agree with this; Ms. Holly looked much better after she had her hair cut.)  Ms. Holly learned that she was being dismissed.   It is said that Ms. Hayman was told by someone in the parking garage that her parking space would no longer be reserved because she had just taped her final episode of the show.  Ms. Hayman was quite (and justifiably so) upset and hearing this.   She knew that there were many months left on her contract with ABC.  She then contacted Agnes Nixon, and Ms. Nixon told her that she no longer had any association with One Life to Live.   At this point, Ms. Hayman was offered a role (Minnie) on Loving.

 

I was/am a huge fan of the late Ms. Hayman, but I think that Louise Stubbs was superb in the role as Minnie.

 

What I would have loved to see is this (on All My Children):  Frankie Faison was seen as the man who had the affair with Opal.  The show should  hired Ellen Holly as the wife of Frankie Faison.   He could have been a man who was constantly asking Opal and Palmer for things, blackmailing Opal.   Ellen Holly would have played his long-suffering wife.   She could have been in cahoots with her husband, or she could have been sympathetic to Opal's situation.   This would have been similar to the character of Ray and Bertha who had been introduced on All My Children in the 1970s.  (And later, when Reggie was introduced and adopted by Jackson, he could have been a relative of Opal's son.    By the way, I think that Reggie should have gone into the ministry and have been said to be  was entering Divinity School when he was written off All My Children.)

[DRW50]

Thank you dc (and dan) for so many rich details. I had no idea Perry Stephens was fired. Given wh othey replaced him with, what a silly decision.

 

Do you know how long past that June episode Roya left?

 

Killing off Dinah Lee would have been a much better decision than killing Janie. Too bad they backed out. 

[Paul Raven]

[John]

I remeber reading in 1995 in SOW that Chris Marcantel would return as Curtis for a 16 week gig

Also Laura Wright revealed in SOD that Noelle Beck agreed to appear on LOVING in 1995 as long as Trisha wasnt the killer or killed herself.

[DRW50]

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[SFK]

What a handsome guy, that uncle Pork chop.

[DRW50]

 

He's in another one too from around this time - an American Airlines ad. I guess it happens but he aged a fair amount by the time he went on AMC a few years later.