Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[dc11786]

The original foundation was interesting, but just never really utilized. Stacey and Shana were all that was really left of the Donovan/Vochek circle. I think that's a shame. Doug could have been brought back when the show was going the route of reestablishing the university. Richard Cox could have played Doug, even though I loved the original version of Giff. If it was Doug / Gwyn, then you could have also played Shana more in that orbit, and Susan Keith was floundering in that era so it would have been good to give her something to do. Of course, if Giff no longer exists, than Casey would probably need some reworking and I have an idea on two on where you could go there to maintain elements of the character. To maintain a connection to Mike, you could always make Casey either a secret child belonging to Merrill and Roger Forbes to give the kid ties to the Aldens or a secret child that Edy had by her first husband Jonathan so that you could still have Casey haunted by sins of the father. 

I think Mike could have returned in 1993 potentially to replace Alex's return. He could have played the investigation into the threat on the Aldens (who in my version would be Dane Hammond, not Dante, because I wouldn't have introduced Buck or Tess). Given the PTSD story, I probably would have revisited Mike's late Vietnam pal Gage and brought on Debbi Morgan as Gage's ex-girlfriend and Alimi Ballard could have been Gage's son. 

Under the right circumstances (writer/producer), I think Stacey could have easily been "Loving's" answer to Felicia. I think Kristina Wagner had a bit more natural charisma, but Lauren Marie Taylor could match her in the spunk department. 

[Khan]

I agree.  LOVING's original foundation, with the well-to-do Aldens and Forbes (and Slaters) contrasting the working class Donovans and Vocheks, was almost too large for a half-hour soap.  Yet, it's almost as if so much of that foundation was tossed aside, especially once Douglas Marland left the show.

[dc11786]

It's a large foundation that you would need to be willing to rest at different times. Soaps use to be good at that, but somewhere that got lost along the way. Instead of resting, the show would just do away with. The episodes surrounding Mike and Noreen's 1985 exit surfaced briefly a little while back. The characters are sent to Saudi Arabia. Mike's job was only supposed to last a year. The set up is for them to come back, but they just don't. 

Given Nixon's prior history, I am surprised she didn't just have Gwyn and Clay dead from the start like Chuck Tyler's parents on "All My Children." Then again, Roger's career means the character would have to relocate at some point if he were to get his dream. And the bible doesn't really suggest that Merrill and Roger were the show's endgame so I could see Merrill and Clay ending up together at some point to upset the social dynamics of the Vochek/Donovan and Alden clans. Like "Santa Barbara," it seems like there is only one character in each supporting family that the show cared about (Merrill / Mike) at the outset of the drama.

Also, the original plan of Patrick Donovan dying would have opened up story opportunities if it was played right. I'm still convinced the only reason Patrick Donovan was dead in the 1990s was because Nixon forgot that she hadn't killed him off originally. 

 

[j swift]

@dc11786 I like the rich sister/poor sister setup of Rituals.  Because for a thirty-minute show, they needed more reasons to have the different social strata interact than the university.  So, it might have been cool if Rose and Gwen were sisters.

I feel like Loving was one of the last shows to use a class structure as the backdrop for the show.  On Generations, everyone was upwardly mobile.  The City had everyone living in the same building.  And Sunset Beach had a rich family, but Annie was not driven by a desire to climb the social rankings like Ava or Erica.  All of which is to say, that perhaps by the early 90s the Donovan's became irrelevant because class-based stories became out of fashion, and the Rescotts made them somewhat redundant.  Not an excuse, nor a defense, just an observation. 

[dc11786]

On "Rituals," it was the case of a poor aunt Sarah and married into a rich family niece Christina. Given the age difference between Teri Keane and Christine Tudor Newman that dynamic might have been better to mimic. The only issue with that is the biological ties between the Gwyn's children and the Donovan clan. "Rituals" made sure that Christina's only child Jeff was her stepson. 

"Santa Barbara" attempted the class structure backdrop with more of an "Upstairs/Downstairs" element with the Andrades working for the Capwells and the Perkins having various positions of servitude. Even Cruz was initially in C.C.'s employ. "Passions" also utilized the class structure, but not to the full extent. 

The Donovans were essentially replaced by the Rescotts. As originally envisioned, I get the sense that the Rescotts were even farther down the social ladder literally living on the wrong side of the tracks. The Donovans were able to send two of three kids to college. I don't think the Rescotts were doing the same. 

[Paul Raven]

Maybe not all of the Donovans should have been there at the beginning.

Looking back, Days kept some Hortons offscreen at the start, Y&R had Lorie waiting in the wings and when Marland introduced the Reardons and the Snyders other family members were mentioned but not onscreen.

It's an effective strategy, even if other siblings turn up within months.

The 2 sister angle would have worked well with Generations with Ruth doing and another sister still struggling. 

[te.]

It's always sounded to me like Loving needed to choose what they wanted to focus on - young adults from different backgrounds at a university, with maybe parents as more of a recurring presence, or the class struggles of different families? If it's the later, then they needed to cut down the main families to two to be able to make a coherent 30 minute soap. If it's the former, then they could have students from varying families, but mostly keep other family members off screen and just have them drop in as the plot dictated.

It just sounds like trying to do too much and not really ending up with much at all in the long run.

[Khan]

I've said the same thing about SaBa.  I felt (and still feel) that featuring so many characters at the beginning hurt SaBa in the long run, because doing so didn't allow the viewers the opportunity to get to know them all well enough (to say nothing of their issues with the casting of many of them, lol).  And I think the same could be said about LOVING.

There was much about GENERATIONS that I thought could have been improved upon - but that's for another thread. 

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[dc11786]

Who would you have suggested be kept offscreen from the Donovans in the beginning?

"Days" introduced almost everyone (except Kitty and Danny, renamed and regendered Sandy) but quickly wrote out Addie, Ben, and Steven. They were still present. I think Noreen and Mike should have separated early on if they weren't going to do the AIDS storyline. 

The bigger issue is that the Donovans weren't significant enough in the bible. Mike's story is a leading story, but most of the family conflict was tied to his father's death, which didn't happen, and to the animosity with his more intellectual brother, Doug. Doug is presented as little more than a cuckhold or the friendly loser in the Merrill-Roger storyline. Stacey is presented as a potential young schemer, but she doesn't have any story. Patrick si suppose to die. Rose is just present. Noreen also was underdeveloped. Even underdeveloped there was potential there. The Jack-Stacey romance at least tied the two families together but that wasn't until March, 1984, that the story really picked up. 

As I think I've said before, I would've gone to town with the Donovans. I would have played it in the pilot film that Doug was carrying on with a man who had ties to AU, Ted Cummings. The investigation into the prostitute murders would have led Patrick Donovan to suspect Ted Cummings might be involved because Ted was spotted at the motel when the murders had begun. Ted would be arrested and refuse to explain his whereabouts during the murders. When things looked bleak, Doug would confess privately to his father that he was having an affair with Ted Cummings, a public relations representative at AU. That Ted was keeping quiet because they had been lovers. Deeply Catholic Patrick would get into a nasty argument with Doug suggesting that he would rather have learned that Doug had been the murderer. After the fight, Patrick would have confronted Ted during which time he would realize that Amelia was the murderer. He would tracked down Amelia Whitley after calling Mike, who ignored his call, and ended up being shot and killed by Amelia before Amelia called Cabot Alden, who helped her escape Corinth for South America unaware that Amelia had killed anyone. In the final moments, as Amelia got on the plane, Amelia vowed to keep Cabot's secret. 

As the series picked up, everyone would know that Amelia Whitley was the madam and that she had murdered Patrick Donovan. The Donovans would be preparing for the funeral each reacting in their own way: Stacey seeking solace from the boys at AU leading her into a dangerous situation where Jack had to save her, Mike would quit the force following the hero's speech at the Fourth of July picnic because how could be a hero when he killed his father, Rose would be numb and locking herself away, and Doug would turn to writing because not only had Patrick died but Ted took a position in Philadelphia to escape the drama. Weeks later, Doug would go to see Ted in Philadelphia only for his wife Cindy to open the door. 

Meanwhile, everyone would suspect that it was Johnny Forbes who had helped Amelia Whitley leave town as Johnny was out on his boat when Amelia had fled jursidiction. Johnny would become a pariah. This would deflate a lot of Roger's political ambitions. Merrill, slowly falling for Roger, would agree to help Roger to clear Johnny's name by digging deeper into Amelia Whitley's background. While Cabot plotted to ruin Merrill's career, a publishing or production company would approach Merrill about turning the serial killer/Amelia Whitley story into a book or film. 

Merrill's investigation would cause animosity among the Donovans. How could Merrill help clear Johnny Forbes' name when the Donovans all knew he was connected to Amelia? Doug would try to remain neutral as he was loyal to his beard as Merrill. Meanwhile, there would also be a level of sexual tension between Mike and Merrill, who would be an independent woman who was having a very fulfilling sex life which may not have played well for her newsanchor image hence her agreement to set up house with Doug to each of their own benefits. As if the tension over Merrill's report wasn't enough, members of Jim Vochek's church had gotten word that Alden University professor Dr. Andrew Lambert was working on an AIDS research project, which the church was planning on protesting because they didn't want their town to be a haven to prostitutes, homosexuals, and addicts. 

Noreen would then confess that she had accepted Lambert's offer to work on the AIDS research project because it would came with a significant paycheck, which they would need because of Mike's decision to quit the force. Mike would deliver a homophobic rant which would lead to a rather hostile moment where Doug would slug Mike. Noreen would move out into a studio apartment and spend more and more time at the lab with Dr. Lambert. 

Jim Vochek would try to play mediator. He wouldn't believe in his parishioners hostile approach, which, in turn, would cause him some grief with the diocese as a good friend of Rose's, Mrs. Irene Malone, had expressed his distaste in Jim's pro-acceptance sermon. Jim and Mike would have a similar conversation and Mike would be left to wonder if Jim didn't join the Church to escape his own feelings for men. Jim would also visit Doug, who would expect hositlity from Jim, but found friendship. Doug would quickly confess to Jim, who will admit he had known for years about Doug's sexuality due to the confession of a former boyfriend of Doug's. Doug would slowly begin to fall for the very straight, very Catholic JIm and have to fight his feelings. 

Mike and Noreen's feelings regarding having a baby would be complicated by Mike's ongoing mental health issues. Mike and Anne would have a fling still, but Noreen wouldn't be accepting. Realizing she was getting older, Noreen would decide to divorce Mike and have a child on her own. Meanwhile, Dr. Lambert would admit that he had developed feelings for her. Noreen would seek out adoption services, but realize how time consuming the process might be. 

Stacey would be engaging in unsafe sex with several young men, including Curtis Alden. Stacey would becoming very enamoured with Curtis' group of friends from Europe who shared Curtis' very open views on sex and sexuality. It would be suggested that Curtis was very libertine after being raised by Clay and Gwyn who engaged in a very transparent open marriage. Prior to Stacey hooking up with Curtist, Noreen would express her concern to Stacey about her relationships given the work Noreen was doing with AIDS patients.  

Meanwhile, Roger and Merrill's investigation of Amelia would not only unrattle Cabot Alden, but also Garth Slater, Amelia's former boss. As Amelia left in a hurry, there would be lots of mess left in her wake. Roger and Merrill would learn that Amelia was extorting a series of people. Merrill would wonder where the money was as Amelia, in Corinth, had led such a low key lifestyle. It would only be through investigation that we learned that Amelia had funded the best boarding school and Ivy league education of her adopted daughter, Shana Sloane. During the investigation, Garth would attempt to murder Merrill and Roger leading them to a situation where they were injured. When they recovered, Merrill was treated at the hospital and it would be discovered she was pregnant. 

Merrill would contemplate an abortion, which would lead to a huge argument with her sister Noreen who desperately wanted a child. It would be when Merrill nearly miscarried the baby that her secret came out. Everyone would assume it was Doug's and it would be the impending birth of the grandchild that would life Rose Donovan out of her depression, after a suicide attempt. Merrill and Doug would plan to marry with Jim performing the ceremony with only Stacey being aware that her brother's feelings for Father Jim were more than platonic.  

The board of trustees at Alden University has learned about Dr. Lambert's work and some of the more conservative members are demanding that Lambert's project be terminated. A battle over who will vote for the funding. At the same time, Curtis' pal Mark St. James arrives from France to reveal that he has AIDS and is worried for Curtis based on prior activities they engaged with involving a young woman, Amanda, who has also suddenly died of a mysterious illness. Isabelle takes in Mark, who has been rejected by his family, and is by Curtis' side and she takes him to Dr. Lambert to run testing. Curtis is cleared. Mark stays on with Noreen doing private service. Cabot is furious when he realizes what has been going on and Isabelle kicks out Cabot, who is forced to stay in the Corinth Inn. At the same point, there is a vote over whether or not the funding should continue for the project. Isabelle gives a stirring speech about Mark and about her own brother, Leonard Dwyer, who she suspects was in love with his best friend and had died by his own hand shortly after his friend married a woman. 

With the baby on the way, Rose would rejuvenated and with the wedding in air, she begins to design a very simple, but beautiful dress for Merrill. Merrill, who has befriended the Aldens in the process of trying to clear Johnny Forbes' name, shows off the design to Anne and her mother, Isabelle. Isabelle is incredibly impressed and wonders why Rose doesn't have her own shop. Rose makes it clear that the Donovans don't have the kind of money, and Isabelle wants to provide the initial financing for this to occur. She has been secretly been looking to prove to Cabot that she has much more business acumen than he has given her credit for as she has asked to take over the fledging Burnell's department store, but he has dismissed her interest. 

News of Doug's wedding brings back Ted Cummings for the bachelor party, which leads to Ted revealing he and Cindy have divorced. Ted wants Doug back. Doug doesn't believe this isn't anything more than an attempt to Ted to get him into bed. A drunken kiss occurs between Ted and Doug which is witnessed by Mike leading to a rather a heated confrontation where Mike, during the rehearsal dinner, outs Doug to the entire Donovan/Vochek clan. 

Stacey and Curtis would become involved, but Curtis would be encouraged not to sleep with her because of his potential HIV/AIDS exposure. Stacey meanwhile doesn't completely understand why Curits, who is so sex-positive, won't sleep with her which pushes her towards his cousin Jack. When Stacey starts to exhibit low self esteem, it is Rose and Isabelle who help to transform her as part of their work to open the The Irish Rose Dress Shop. The former tomboy turned beauty queen evokes new interest from both men. 

And on and on... clearly lots of this never would happen on ABC daytime in 1983-1984 because of the gay nature of the material, but I am sure someone else could have easily found a way to ignite some interest in the Donovan clan with a little creative thought.

Additional follow up stories would have involved Noreen getting artificially inseminated with Doug's child (because Noreen wants a Donovan baby) only for Noreen and Mike to reunite and Mike raising Doug's son with the animosity between the brothers continuing to brew, Victor Vochek (the father) arriving and falling for Rose Donovan only for their wedding plans to fall apart when Victor confesses his first wife abandoned the family rather than dying like he claimed, and Doug's professional and romantic relationship with closeted football star Billy Rescott who roams around the old Slater mansion after being injured in a car accident that killed his lover while his wife Rita Mae Rescott attempts to infilitrate the Alden family through a friendship with Isabelle by working at the dress shop while planning her own career as a clothing designer. 

I don't think any American daytime show on network television would ever truly allow itself to be set around a university or a high school because the assumed appeal for the younger demographic would be the student body who would eventually age out. The closest thing I've seen to this being attempted well was "Tribes." 

"Loving" is at its most creatively viable with a college setting in late 1991 when there are absolutely no college students just adults working on the campus. Millee Taggart and Robert Guza don't do a terrible job either around 1993 with telling college based stories, but I'm not sure if they could have maintained the energy longterm. To be fair, not sure if Mary Ryan Munisteri could either.  

"Santa Barbara" struggled more with casting than "Loving" did. I think the cast of "Loving" was more than serviceable, but like "Santa Barbara" they weren't utilized to their full potential. "Generations" needed the working class element. Doreen Jackson should have been carrying on with Ruth's working class brother-in-law or nephew. 

[Khan]

I agree.  I always cringe whenever I see or hear about another series that is set at a high school and revolves around members of the student body, because you just know they're gonna do something insane - like have all the characters remain in the same class and/or at the same grade level for multiple seasons, or have a teacher follow them from year to year, and even from high school to college, like Mr. Feeney did on "Boy Meets World" - in order to keep going past the show's natural expiration date.  (Plus, I just think classroom scenes are among the worst kinds of scenes to write and to watch, lol).  If I were to develop a series about a high school, I'd center it around members of its' faculty instead.

As usual, @dc11786, I think your ideas for the Donovans are wonderful!

 

Edited February 14 by Khan

[OzFrog]

I’ve just finished binge watching some 90s Loving playlists - as much as people rave about Casey and Ally, I actually found Cooper and Steffi just as captivating a couple to watch.

I never truly appreciated how much Cooper transformed as a character throughout his run on Loving until I watched him through the arranged marriage with Ally and then his ultimate romance with Steffi. The Casey/Ally/Cooper/Steffi quadrangle is IMO one of the best I’ve seen on US daytime soaps, and ranks up there with the 80s GL Fab Four.

And a lot of that comes down to the sheer talent of all four actors, Paul Anthony Stewart, Laura Wright, Michael Weatherley and Amelia Heinle - all of whom would go on to have successful careers whether in daytime or primetime. They all had such amazing chemistry with each other!

For those interested, here’s the Cooper/Steffi playlist I’ve been watching: 

 

 

[Paul Raven]

Bill was not there at the beginning and arrived at Xmas for a few eps played by Paul Carr. Ed Mallory assumed the role in June 66. so really it was only Mickey, Marie and Julie. And Mickey was strong supporting, not leading  story.

I think the plan all along was to establish Addie/Ben/Steven and then have Julie stay on as a neglected teen.

Not sure which Loving characters should not have been there at the start but a few might have been held back with the focus on fewer characters and stories at the start to help viewers get into the show.

[Sapounopera]

Cabot and Isabelle were not really needed and we could have parts of them brought to Roger and Ann. Even Shanna could have been brought as Johnny's daughter, or Ann's estranged sister from the start.

Mike and Noreen could have merged with Billy and Rita Mae.  I would keep Pamela Blair as Rita Mae Donovan.

[Khan]

I always forget about Billy and Rita Mae Bristow.  Did they have any familial connections with the core families?

[Sapounopera]

No. Billy was just working at the University.