Loving/The City Discussion Thread

[Vee]

LMT is horror royalty too, having done the beloved Friday the 13th Part 2 (the first with Jason Voorhees actually axing teenagers). That's where I first knew her from. In retrospect I'm not surprised to see Agnes come back and refocus story on her again and again on LOV - she's very much an audience identification type. I think she could've had a bigger, longer soap career if she hadn't been harbored on LOV for so long and had turned up at ATWT, GL, AMC or other shows.

[amybrickwallace]

Does LMT remind everyone else, at least during the 1980s, of Kristy McNichol? 

[Vee]

I was very young in the '80s, since I don't really have the association with Kristy McNichol.

[Franko]

I get where you're coming from, @amybrickwallace, but I'll be honest, that first image of the teens (and Rita Mae) by the pool was giving me a "Five Go Mad" vibe.

 

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Somehow, I don't think Agnes wanted her new soap to be associated with the '80s British alternative comedy scene.

[amybrickwallace]

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[dc11786]

Nixon wrote from September 1993 until August 1994. There were episodes online from September 1993. In an episode leading up to the tornado (before Michael Lord's Curtis left town), Millee Taggert and Robert Guza are still credited as headwriters. By the time the tornado is over, Agnes Nixon is credited. This is about mid to late September. 

It doesn't feel like Nixon returned with some sort of grand plan. SOD reported that Millee Taggert left the show in 1993 because she was ill so its possible that Nixon's decision to takeover was sudden and not meant to be as longterm. I believe Nixon tended to do short runs in the late 1990s / early 2000s on "All My Children" between writers. Nixon's associate headwriters during her 1990s run were Laurie McCarthy and Addie Walsh who would assume the role of headwriters once Nixon departed. Despite this, McCarthy and Walsh were the ones that the soap press were speaking with when they were getting information about the show. 

Nixon's first months are rough. I don't think things really settle in until January 1994 though there is definitely some good stuff in between. 

I don't think any of the scam stuff worked. There were a lot of elements of Tess' character that felt very Guza. When watching the 1993 episodes several years back, Tess reminded me very much of Summer (Brittney Powell) from "General Hospital." I think Taggert was resetting Tess in September by scrapping the scam stuff, downplaying the Curtis / Buck stuff, and putting Tess in Shana and Leo's orbit. I think its possible Taggert may have intended to fashion more into an early Dinahlee type, which I think would have worked. 

Honestly, a lot of characters became less complex under Nixon than they were under Guza / Taggert.  

I'm not sure if the show was really dumping Curtis as much they were Michael Lord. The setup was there for Curtis' return, but Nixon didn't go the route that Taggert and Guza hinted at. In the final days of Michael Lord's run, Curtis switches out Dinahlee's birth control pills and is looking to have a baby with Dinahlee. I felt Curtis was going to return to a pregnant Dinahlee.

Jeremy in Corinth was a mistake. LeClerc and Peluso had nice chemistry, but Jeremy was an albatross. They would have been better off developing a different character for him. Similarly, I don't think bringing on Angie in the way they did was smart. It would have been better to have Angie working at the university in either a research position or clinical work. 

I really liked the Gwyn / Stacey rivalry. I thought it was disappointing to dump that. It would have been better to keep Gwyn and Buck friends, as Gwyn suggested, and Buck becoming concerned about Gwyn and Clay based on Clay's recent machinations involving Stacey leading to Stacey and Buck tension. Buck feeling not good enough for Stacey for financial reasons was a serious shift that I felt worked, but it was a huge shift that could have been handled another way.

 The first part of the Dante story was interesting, but the timeline was wonky. I'm pretty sure Alex arrived in town right before or right as Curtis left so that whole angle seemed to be a different direction than what was initially intended.

Nixon completely dropped the tension between Leo and Shana regarding Shana's ownership of Burnell's as well as the angle that Ava had gone to college to be near Jeremy. The baby situation was interesting, but it wasn't the kind of situation you could tell everyday.  

Curtis was older than Trisha. 

[j swift]

I tend to think of these issues structurally in hindsight rather then sentimentally.  Once Clay returns, the character of Curtis becomes redundant.  He not only emphasizes Clay's (and Alex's) age by reminding viewers that they had a son who was as old as their lover, Ava, he also serves the same purpose for plot lines.  I mean how many avarice heirs does one rich family require on a soap?

While I realize that Curtis came and went throughout Clay's story, and often served as his antagonist, I am suggesting that there was limited lasting power for the character because his plot potential was so similar to more established or beloved characters.  So, it may not have been about trying cast the right actor as much as trying to find a purpose for Curtis to be in Correnth.

Edited October 8, 2021 by j swift

[Kane]

Thank you! That timing makes a lot of sense in terms of how the storylines start to drift.

 

I find that Nixon's run has some good individual stories, but overall feels less cohesive. Other than the Dante story, which basically ends up touching every other story and drawing just about all the characters in by the end of '93, in '94 the show becomes hyper focused on one story at a time for about 6-8 weeks while the characters who aren't involved in that particular story disappear for weeks at a time.

 

I would have settled for Dinah Lee to have been refashioned into an early Dinah Lee type; she was a lot more interesting to me in her first iteration than when she was transformed into a more generic heroine. I figured the birth control thing was going to lead to a who's the daddy story with Clay, given how the months of set up since Curtis and Dinah Lee discover each others' identities basically demands the story go in that direction. Right after Curtis leaves, Clay tells Dinah Lee that he's not coming back and she says something to the effect of "he's gone, but you're still here, is that what you're telling me?" But then the show just... doesn't go there. I've always felt that the fallout from the Dante story would have made more sense if Clay had been the one Dinah Lee had gotten involved with rather than Trucker because Curtis already had so much anxiety about Clay and Dinah Lee before he left.

 

In a way it feels like they were figuring out the Dante story as they were writing it. I just watched the episodes a few days ago, so it's fresh in my mind, but when Charles comes to town he tells Clay that the FBI has been keeping an eye on him for a year, which... why? He then says that whoever "these people" are, they may have been involved in Trisha's accident, but then that angle isn't pursued, nor is it explained why they think the accident might not have been an accident. And even though Curtis' connection to Tess is explained to Alex at the beginning of November, it isn't until the end of December that Jeremy finally puts it together that either Dante or Dante's family might be behind the plot.

Shana's ownership of Burnell's would have been such an easy way to give Leo and Shana more story, given what an insecure chauvinist he is, but the show pretty much loses interest in both of them once the baby is born. The show can't even be bothered to really tie them into the plot against the Aldens; I remember there's a scene where the family is brought together so that the FBI can warn them that they're all in danger and the show doesn't even bother to include Shana and Leo, opting instead for a throwaway line about how they're being informed off screen.

[amybrickwallace]

You've got a good point. Since the characterization of Curtis varied wildly with each actor who played him, it's very likely they were trying to find a purpose for him.

[dc11786]

Casting the 2nd generation of Aldens (Clay, Gwyn, Ann) and the 3rd generation of Aldens (Curtis, Jack, Rick, Trisha) with actors with such a small age gap I do think complicated things. I do think this may have been why Ann was never brough back in the 1990s. 

I don't think Curtis served the same story purpose as Clay. Curtis' bigger issue was the evolution of the character from unloved bad boy to more a reformed playboy to traditional romantic lead. By the time Curtis returns in the 1990s, the character has been reset to a man haunted by his past while Clay is more bitter and vengeful. Clay looms as a omnious vision of who Curtis can become if Curtis falls too deeply into the Alden rabbit hole. 

With all that said, I would accept the argument that Cooper rendered Curtis unnecessary as a younger Alden male heir with the potential to be Clay or reject the world Clay presents to him. Nixon ultimately plucks Clay out of the triangle with Dinahlee and Curtis and places him into a similar situation with Cooper and Steffi. In the end, I think the Clay / Cooper dynamic was more well developed, but it definitely benefitted from a stronger actor and more care and nuance. 

I think if TPTB had found an actor that more suited their vision of Curtis, then he would have still been in town in October 1993. 

Millee Taggert and Robert Guza's 1993 run definitely integrated the cast more into other stories. The show storylines didn't feel so isolated. 

While I didn't like how all encompassing it became, I don't think the ad agency was a terrible idea. I think that was a smart set piece given the canvas in place at the time. I appreciate what Nixon did to rehab the character of Tess, but I wish they had just put Lorna in charge of the ad agency (even if it was Catherine Hickland playing Lorna). 

I know a lot of people don't like Egypt's murder scheme, but I did. I like that Egypt roped in Buck, which laid the groundwork for the Janie Sinclaire reveal. I also felt the Dante angle gave Egypt a very valid reason for leaving Alexis in Corinth and running away. 

The minute Mary Ryan Munisteri left "Loving" Dinahlee becomes less interesting. Walsh makes her into some weak, clingy heroine which was completely unnecessary given the story in place. I much rather Clay have approached Dinahlee in order to BREAK up Trucker and Trisha's marriage. Clay would have pursued Dinahlee in order to keep Trucker involved in Dinahlee's orbit, which would have infuriated Trisha and hopefully, for Clay, instigated a separation between Trucker and Trisha. Of course, Dinahlee would have seen dollar signs. Also, Dinahlee's pursuit of the Alden fortune via Clay may have made Isabelle put more stipulations on her plans to make CLay the president of Alden. There was a way to keep Dinahlee in the Alden orbit as an active instigator rather than a passive pawn. 

I agree, though, I wish Dinahlee got back more of her backbone even though I enjoy much of the Curtis / Dinahlee / Trucker triangle. 

I think they kept Robert Tyler around because they hoped Noelle Beck would return one day. Having Trucker with Dinahlee when Trisha returned would have been a smart setup, but unnecessary. I was intrigued by the Trucker / Angie relationship, but the most interesting angle of that, Trucker taking Frankie under his wing, was used by Nixon with Frankie and Charles.

Thinking about your point regarding Clay / Dinahlee, I wonder if the original plan wasn't to play Clay / Dinahlee / Alex triangle for several months before Curtis returned to town with Alex taking on the role similar to that Jeremy took on with Stacey when she was married to Clay.  

The Dante story is fun, but it is has a spontaneous quality that is a bit disappointing. I remember the suggestion that the people stalking Clay were behind Trisha's murder. I believe there may have been a lingering question about what Trisha was in a rush to tell Trucker the day she died. Ultimately, it was that Curtis and Buck knew each other, but I can't remember if everyone knew that at the time. I believe the original intention may have been to reveal Trisha was alive sooner rather than later. There was also a great beat in the Dante story where Gwyn brings in a psychic who is able to track down Gwyn's child, but Gwyn dismisses Mrs. Quackenbush because she talks about Gwyn's female child rather than her male child. 

There was backlash about Dante being the only Middle Eastern character and a villain. It would have been interesting to bring on another member of Dante's family who people questioned their motives, but ultimately they would have been on the up and up. Potentially a business rival for the Aldens.

I liked disliking Leo. I was disappointed how quickly they downplayed that. 

[amybrickwallace]

I enjoyed hearing about the Dante story in The Men of Loving Chat. Chris Marcantel had a good sense of humor about it. 

[dc11786]

Thom Christopher never seems to shy away from playing the homoeroticism in any storyline he has been given. I remember reading Christopher's comments about the Cristian Vega mind control story in the oral history book about "One Life to Live." Christopher talked about playing up the sexual element of the story and David Fumero being pretty open up until a certain point.

From what I recall about the "One Life" story, that was most subtext, but the Dante story was less subtle. Dinahlee and Dante have a very specific conversation about Dinahlee thinking that Joe Young (Dante) has been sneaking a lover into his room above the bowling alley before Dante starts to referring to Curtis as his kitty. The story is very James E. Reilly. 

The suspense in the Dante story is very, very good. 

[amybrickwallace]

Did he really feed Curtis cat food?

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[dc11786]

I don't recall, but the cage Dante kept Curtis in was intended for an animal. It wasn't very big. 

[amybrickwallace]

Ha! Getty Images actually has pictures of it on their website. Here's one:

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