The flashes inform the narrative--are a part of it. I don't even understand your comment

I thought some of them were just done for the sake of being done, or to try to play with viewers. I remember one where they brought Ian Somerhalder back in a flashback just to sort of jokingly suggest Boone was gay. I don't know if that really informed the narrative.

Damages is such a soap. Its set in the legal world, but its far from a Law & Order. Damages is everything good about soaps actually. Love it.

Vamp Diaries is a great soap too.

There is a difference though, I think. This came up a while back when I was discussing my love for the Herskovitz/Zwick domestic dramas--they're serials yet they don't feel like "prime time soaps".

Of course there is a difference. We're witnessing the transformation of what soap opera means. The classic, feuding families, happenings in a small apartment complex or what happens in a small town soap has become a thing of the past. Largely.

Various other types of TV series took elements of soap operas and used (transformed) them for their own purposes. So we have Heroes (a bad soap, but a soap), Lost, Brothers & Sisters, ER, 24, Fringe... Those are all soaps.

Genre studies is an interesting field. At least for a while.

I thought some of them were just done for the sake of being done, or to try to play with viewers. I remember one where they brought Ian Somerhalder back in a flashback just to sort of jokingly suggest Boone was gay. I don't know if that really informed the narrative.

They do that sometimes. But it is a part of the show and you just have to accept it.

I missed this article on the previous page! Very interesting, thanks for posting Paul Raven. I love that the producer slapped Lana Turner back. I bet she deserved it. Now I want to see this show even more. Sounds very lavish and expensive and since they want to downplay the soapy aspects it's probably as camp as a row of tents. Interesting that the producer came from Peyton Place. Explains why there was another primetime soap yet it didn't become a trend. Since I'm assuming this one is an hour I wonder if it has more in common with the 80s primetime soaps.

An article about the behind the scenes strife of The Survivors.It only makes me want to see it more!

Lana Turner knew only too well that she was the model for the lurid 1962 novel Where Love Has Gone, and stopped talking to its author, Harold Robbins (The Carpetbaggers). But by two years ago, she had made peace and signed to star in Robbins' The Survivors, an ABC television series about the jet set he concocted for the forth coming season. That, it turns out, may be grounds to break off relations permanently with Robbins — and just possibly is the worst decision of Lana's 45-movie, seven-husband career. The Survivors has so far proved to be the most overpriced and troubled TV series ever. In the ten months since shooting began, the show has run through three producers.

Also down the chute went one director, the costume designer, the executive story editor — and the original Robbins story line itself.

Says Lana, one of the few charter members of the company left on the set last week: "If we were to film what really has happened behind the cameras, no one would believe it."

The narrative is, so to speak, pure Robbins. He conceived The Survivors for a couple of reasons. Though he has sold more than 40 million books, Robbins has long lusted for a larger audience: he figures that "even if the show is a failure, more people will view it in one night than all the people who have ever read or seen The Carpetbaggers." Secondly, he has always felt that two-hour movie adaptations of his novels were too truncated and that 100 hours were really needed.

Sophisticated Saga.

So Robbins went to the production brass of ABC, and spieled out a scenario. There is this banking family, he winged — Morgan or Rothschild types, with the second generation vying among themselves for command after the death of the patriarch. The saga would unfold in novel form, not with self-contained weekly story segments but chapter by chapter. The Survivors would also be more sophisticated than conventional television — "A story," as Robbins put it, "of today's morals.

If people go to bed together, they'll go to bed together on the show. We are not bowing down to TV in any way."

ABC was sold, with nary a script or a pilot, and commissioned Universal to produce it. Robbins would get a percentage of any profits, plus $10,000 a show. Furthermore, he says, he was guaranteed a full 26 weeks the first year instead of the customary 15 or 17, and payment for a second season of 26 shows "whether it bombs or not." For that unprecedented, sweet contract, Robbins gave ABC only a nine-page "treatment," conferred a few times with Universal, and then took off for his Riviera home.

Journeymen Hollywood scriptwriters would hack out the weekly chapters from the Robbins outline and flesh out such supporting characters as Louis Armond St. Verre, described in the scenario only as "the debauched scion of an old French family whose main claim to fame is that he has made love to 3,000 women and has had gonorrhea 26 times.

The first producer, William Frye, was allocated the highest series budget in the history of TV—nearly $8,000,000 for the 1969-70 season. That bought not only Lana but also George Hamilton, who seemingly has given up his escort service for serious acting ("Commitment," he proclaimed last week, "is 90% of life"). Some $200,000 was spent on the set—four times the TV average —and another $100,000 on wardrobes, $50,000 of it for Lana. But that didn't stop her from quarreling with Producer Frye over the jewelry provided. Frye couldn't be bothered, he said, and got a slap across the face. He slapped back —on both cheeks—and she told the producer he was through.

Thus, after two months of shooting (most of it on location on the Riviera) and $1,000,000 of expenses, Universal still had to get its first usable episode.

After another producer passed briefly through the chaos, old TV Hand Walter Doniger (Maverick) was called in and wrote a 40-page, single-spaced critique of what was wrong with Robbins' nine-page outline and the scripts to date. He became the third producer.

Harmonious Sex Life.

In Doniger's view, a fight over a banking empire run by a family patriarch (Ralph Bellamy) would not keep TV viewers tuned in for very long. So he decided instead "to deal not with the abstracts of wealth but rather with the emotional problems of rich people. Our stories will be about human beings faced with all kinds of swirling emotional forces, told against an enormous backdrop, but with the same kind of problems as you and I." Translation: kink it up.

Out went eight different story outlines, three finished scripts and five more in the works. In the original, for example, Lana and her husband (Kevin McCarthy) hymned their harmonious sex life with lines like "It's only good with you." Now it's bad, bad, bad, and in fact their 19-year-old son turns out to have been sired by a Greek named Krakos, who was at the time a poverty-stricken tourist guide but has since become richer than Onassis. Naturally, the son has some S.D.S.-type campus friends. Also hastily written in is a South American revolutionary conservatively patterned not after Guevara or Castro but Simon Bolivar.

Despite all the frantic script doctoring and transplants, Universal claims that shooting is about on schedule. Lana and the old sweater-girl figure are holding up pretty well for her years (49). She is getting along swimmingly with Producer du jour Doniger, who himself professes to be having "desperate fun" with the cast and show. "It is like having a cocktail party on the wing of an airplane." Lana does make her daily 5:45 a.m. calls, and has difficulty only in getting a fix on her unraveling character. "There have been so many story versions that I am still trying to figure out what kind of woman I am," she complains. Last week, for instance, Lana had to shoot the sixth chapter, though the third chapter still lacks a final script.

Treat or a Treatment.

One of the principals of the cast—who signed on in hopes that the show "might convey the real emptiness of our life and become an American L'Avventura"—now fears that it is degenerating into high-priced prime-time soap opera. Producer Doniger vehemently disputes the charge, though he just as determinedly denies that his last show was soap. It was Peyton Place.

That series, at least, made ABC a lot of money, and the real cliffhanging question in The Survivors melodrama is whether Robbins has given the network a treat or a treatment. With his two-year guarantee, he has less to lose than the network if the show doesn't survive the second season. No matter what happens, Robbins will continue to be as rich as Krakos.

I think Turner claimed that the producer was drinking (I can't remember) and had been unpleasant to her and a costume designer.

ABC was the perennial third place network until the mid 70's and from time to time a show would come along eg Peyton Place,Batman etc that would get a lot of buzz and the talk would be that they would finally climb out of 3rd place.

They were obviously hoping The Survivors would be the next show to do that.

It was placed Monday @9 up against Mayberry RFD and Doris Day on CBS and the NBC Movie.Like so many ABC shows it inherited a timeslot where the network was 3rd placed.Mayberry and Doris finished 4th and 10th that season.

It had weak lead-ins -Music Scenes and New People which each ran 45 mins to try and block the opposition(similar to what ABC did with GH and OLTL later in the 70's).

It lasted 3 and 1/2 months and was rerun in Summer 1970.

Some plot details:

Lana played Tracy Carlyle Hastings,struggling to protect her teenage son Jeffrey(Jan Micheal Vincent)from "forces that could destroy him". Among the major protagonists were Tracy's philandering husband Philip(Kevin McCarthy);her father,banking czar Baylor(Ralph Bellamy) and her playboy half brother Duncan(George Hamilton)

The Carlyles tangled with South American revolutionary Miguel Santerra(Robert Viharo),Tracy's old flame Riakos- Jeffrey's real father (Rossano Brazzi),Baylor's lingering death and everybody's attempt to get their hands on his millions.

Would love to see it on DVD!

I just started watching thirtysomething.

Nolan Miller discusses Lana Turner and The Survivors in his TV Archive interview, it definitely sounds like this was his career warm-up to Dynasty as he provided several glamorous changes per episode for Turner. I'd love to see this series, I've only seen the promo on WoST. And what can I say, George Hamilton, I've loved that guy ever since Love at First Bite.

I just started watching thirtysomething.

Now that's another show I've been considering giving a chance at my current age, I wasn't at all interested in it when it first aired. When I was younger, it was the butt of so many jokes on sitcoms, yet it was rather critically-acclaimed. And it drew inspiration from one of my favorite movies, The Big Chill, so I think it's worth a try. I wonder if it's on Netflix/Amazon On-Demand...

I adore thirtysomething--I got into it in reruns when I was 19 or something, lol. I still have it on VHS, but maybe I should get the DVDs now that I'm about to turn (gulp) thirty.

But... I'm not sure it's a primetime soap. 10 years ago, I would have argued it was, I've since changed my mind. There's a quintessential difference between something like thirtysomething and Knots landing--which deal with people the same age, with similar backgrounds and some of the same problems. That's why I call the Herskovitz/Zwick shows domestic dramas--also of course they next to never had cliff hangars although the episodes weren't fully self contained.

That said all three of their major shows--thirtysomething, My So-Called Life and Once and Again (which of course shared a villain with thirtysomething--and how frustrating is it that the third and last season of O&A still isn't out) are some of my all time fave tv--even the lesser works they were involved in, like Relativity and their flop webseries 1/4 Life had stuff to recommend them. I'm still pretty upset their pilot last year wasn't picked up and that it's not back up this year, as people said it might be.

But the irony is when I was a fan of MSCL as a teen online, and people on the forums would tell me to wait till I was in my thirties to watch thirtysomething as I wouldn't relate to it--they were pretty much wrong--I got it (well when I was 18-19--maybe I wouldn't have at 11 when I was still trying to save "MSCL" in its original run lol) SFK if you are giving it a chance though--and I really recommend you do, keep in mind it took 4 or 5 episodes to find its voice. The pilot, is exactly what the critics at the time who hated the show described it--the characters seem whiny, self absorbed, etc. But by the fourth or fifth episode it's pretty much wonderful. (In hindsight Once and Again had a pretty annoying pilot too--with the meet cute between the parents, etc, but it found its tone soon after--only MSCL had a pretty perfect pilot).

I do remember being 7 at a motel in the rain with my parents and the only show they had on their tv reception was thirtysomething--and I thought it was the boringest thing EVER. LOL

(I like the Big Chill a lot but I actually think thirtysomething is far less self absorbed than Chill is, LOL)

Edited February 11, 201015 yr by EricMontreal22

Now that's another show I've been considering giving a chance at my current age, I wasn't at all interested in it when it first aired. When I was younger, it was the butt of so many jokes on sitcoms, yet it was rather critically-acclaimed. And it drew inspiration from one of my favorite movies, The Big Chill, so I think it's worth a try. I wonder if it's on Netflix/Amazon On-Demand...

Its not on demand.

Its really good. I am only 22 and i like it. I dont relate to it really, but i like it. The actors are fantastic and the supporting caracters are wonderful.

I actually did relate to it a lot at that age. OKOK maybe not specifically--at least not to Mike (God Ken Olin was dreamy back then) and Hope, but I think you can still relate to the emotions, etc (if that makes sense) not to mention I could to Melissa's lack of direction.

So with my comment on not thinking of thirtysomething as a true soap--do people have any discussion/definitions for what makes a primetime soap and what doesn't? Would you agree with Sylph that any character based serial on primetime is a primetime soap? Or do you agree with me that there tends to be some other element that truly makes it fit the genre? or? I admit I go back and forth (I do hate that people who watch, say Six Feet Under which Alan Ball actually said in all seriousness WAS a soap and essentially Knots Landing in a funeral home, like to distance themselves from the soap label out of snobbism)

Also--to what degree have primetime soaps been written (or even created) by writers with prior daytime soap opera experience? It would seem, on the outside, a nobrainer to hire a daytime soap creator to write your primetime soap, but this doesn't seem to be all that common. Peyton Place of course used Irna Phillips early on to help setup the show, though she didn't do any writing once production began (and she came on after ABC turned down the first pilot). Some of the other writers involved with scriptwork, Mathilde and Theo Fero, Robert J Shaw, etc, all had background with primetime shows but also involvement (before and later) with daytime soaps.

None of the major late 70s-early 80s primetime soaps were created by Daytime soap people--David Jacobs created Dallas and Knots (and a number of flops) but never seems to have worked in daytime soaps, Falcon Crest's Earl Hamner was famous as a novelist and creator of The Waltons but not soaps, Richard and Esther Shapiro behind Dynasty, didn't have a soap background either. But I think a number of the writers on the shows did-the writers most credit for making Dynasty into a campy hit were Eileen and Robert Mason Pollock who essentially (as Chris Schemering points out) took every soap opera cliche they had used more subtly in daytime, and upped them to a ridiculous degree and at a ridiculous speed.

While the big 90s Spelling primetime soaps--90210 and Melrose were created by Darren Starr, it was the much loved on here (lol) Charles Pratt Jr who was known for Santa Barbara, who wrote Melorse's top years as well as creating many of Spelling's flop followups (Models Inc, Titans...)

Edited February 11, 201015 yr by EricMontreal22

Rita Lakin,who today is a mystery novelist wrote for Peyton Place and later Flamingo Road wrote The Doctors in the mid 60's.I think she was responsible for the show's ratings jump at that time.

Interesting--I haven't seen her name in the era of Peyton I'm at right now. I know Dynasty's Pollock's biggest success was their ratings surge at Doctors in the 70s. (I always kinda forget that the Doctors had a few eras where it was VERY popular)