B&B: February 2024 Discussion Thread

[ranger1rg]

Donna, I'm probably crazy for answering you, because I'm just going to continue being trashed.

Rape is an issue that stands on its own? So does every crime. I know that rape is a moral and philosophical issue as well as a legal one.

But then you end the conversation, saying there's no need for further question or discussion about whether it's rape. By definition? Yes -- but our system of justice does not end with the definition. You said "If the victim cannot give informed consent, it IS rape." That is true, but the phrase "informed consent" not only needs context, but is open to interpretation.

SHOULD Zende have known Luna was under the influence? Yeah, but that doesn't mean he did. She didn't smell of alcohol, she wasn't falling-down-drunk. He had also been drinking at the party -- a party where he told her she could go to his place if she wanted to.

Zende has been flirting with Luna for weeks. No, she has not encouraged him, but neither has she shut him down. (That is NOT a criticism of Luna. I am NOT saying she had to shut him down). She's clearly been into RJ, but she's been pleasant with Zende all along -- and she knows he likes her.

So Zende goes home and finds Luna in his bed -- reaching out to him. I see both of them as being impaired. Yes, she thinks it's RJ. Zende DID NOT see Luna drinking heavily and has no reason to believe she's out of it. He has no reason to think she believes she's with RJ in that bed.

Luna CONSENTS to sex with RJ. The story is horrifically written,,,,it's an abomination. But Zende DOES NOT know he's taking advantage of Luna. He DOES NOT know she thinks she's with RJ. He thinks she's changed her mind and wants to be with him. Is he dumb? Out of it? I don't know, but he's not a criminal.

Zende likes Luna a lot. We live in a hookup culture. It's not hard to believe he'd have sex with a woman he invited back to his place and found in his bed, reaching out to him. Zende thought Luna wanted HIM and was saying yes to HIM. Saying "he should have known" is bullshit -- or at least that gray area I wrote about.

Soapsuds calls it a rape, but adds that Zende probably wouldn't serve time (and get community service, etc.) because he has a clean record. Well, that still means he ends up with a record of committing sexual assault. He's now a sex offender.

When I look at the context of all that happened, when I look at what was said and done, I do not think Zende should be charged with a crime, especially one as heinous as rape. What happened to Luna is awful. It's not justice to do something awful to another person to somehow respond to what happened to her.

[Contessa Donatella]

Right & I went on to say that of course there could be need for discussion about other situational aspects. Did you see where I said that? 

To you I'm just going to say that I tried but I think you are just intent on being right instead of actually being people talking to each other. Again, you immediately turn to criminality. Surely you've noticed that's not what other people are focused on. But, to you it is the be all & end all of this discussion. To others it is about rape & victims & people's feelings & that is what is essential, not criminality. There is no way that those people would describe those circumstances, revealing a he said/she said that he would be charged. No one would take that case. The issue of criminality couldn't be more moot! Like I sometimes say, "That dog just won't hunt." This is not a rape case where the victim would have justice from the courts. Not at all. That doesn't mean she wasn't raped, 

So, here is where I leave it with you. You can consider yourself one of Bradley's accomplices. You play right into his kind of exploitational crap. 

 

[edgeofnik]

Soaps have always been built on women being victims.

Brad's goal here: Get Zende with Luna, but we need to keep Luna as the 'good girl' for RJ.

If Luna voluntarily hooked up with Zende, she'd be pegged by the 70 yo B&B demo as another SFTV. That kind of sexual freedom is an absolute no-no on B&B, except for Brooke, who is following her heart.... It's too bad B&B's audience wants to watch rich, 20-something get married/babies by 25, instead of a more realistic decadent lifestyle of partying, clubbing, experimentation, sexual freedom, etc.

Brad decide to follow the Thomas/C2/Douglas template. Honestly, Brad probably got that idea from his father who did the Dru cough medicine hook-up with Malcolm on Y&R resulting in Lily. Bill Bell did some disgusting stories, but those get whitewashed because overall, he produced far more winners than losers.

 

[Big mistake]

-+-+++

Edited February 18 by Big mistake

[Maxim]

This pretty much sums up what my feelings are too.

And I am shocked that this person wants this nasty conversation to continue in this tone accusatory, doubting and arguing.

I said what I said and now plan to completely seize engagement with this topic.

But I am happy. Why I am happy -  I think the overall reaction was pretty much universal, the right and humane one... and there is only one person arguing and wanting to be right.

And only one person deflecting and shifting the focus to places we were never going.

I will say this to anyone, reading this- beware excusing rapists. You don't know what would happen if it was your child at Luna's place.

That's all I'm going to say.

Edited February 18 by Althea Davis

[Contessa Donatella]

At DAYS, the famous story where Laura was loved by two brothers but she married one, Mickey. And, Bill raped her. Watching it there is no question. And the story goes on & it is probably Bell's most famous story at DAYS. 

Maloney, M., & Bell, L. P. (2012). The Young and Restless Life 0f William J. Bell. Sourcebooks, Inc.

This directly disputes what we saw happen! Later she & Bill got together, married & had a daughter Jennifer Rose. Yes, she married her rapist.

Edited February 19 by Donna L. Bridges
emphasis

[ranger1rg]

I did see where you said that -- because I've listened to you. I wish you'd have done the same for me.

Instead, I'm "one of Bradley's accomplices" and "exploitational." Thanks a lot, Donna. I've written long, detailed posts here to explain my viewpoint -- not to insist on being right. I'm offended that I've been reduced to siding with rapists.

 

Nasty conversation? I was never nasty to you. I apologized directly to you and was never accusatory.

Doubting and arguing? I put forth my POV on a serious topic. That's not arguing. I did not "deflect" and I did not shift the focus to "places we were never going." That did not happen.

Most importantly, I DID NOT EXCUSE RAPISTS. I'm happy to end this discussion, but not when someone accuses me of something so awful.

You are free to disagree with me about what we saw on our screens. I will not listen to you denigrate my character because you disagree with me.

[Maxim]

Is this for real?  You read and understand only WHAT you want to. You take things out of context and twist them as you want. No, no, no, this is not OK.

1. - Nobody attacked you. You were rude to ME - did you forget how you came at me calling me HONEY and HOW I am not so witty and clever... ? And before that you told me I am contradicting myself and that I am scared to answer questions... 

2. - YOU DID NOT apologize directly to me. You said sorry if a victim was triggered. That is not a direct apology. 

3. - THE CONVERSATION is nasty - NOT YOU. This is a conversation about RAPE, not your character. I don't care about your personal character, I am sorry - you are not the topic here. The DO NOT excuse rapists is a message TO EVERYONE, not YOU. Read my words again. It was my last message to ANYONE READING THIS. Not everything is about YOU. There are actual more important issues here. Like rape, like victims.

But since you are so willing to fight and argue with everyone here, this is the last time I respond to your negative comments. Lose someone else's free time. I am done with reading how we are doing you wrong, all while we have been nothing but TRY TO be polite and you DID NOT.

 

Farewell. 

 

[Taoboi]

2-14

 

I got busy with work and the player has been acting up again and I come on playing catchup and the first thing I hear about is MAGIC MINTS?????

 

Is this how your regulars felt about Brooke, Thomas, and the magic berries because I'm like 

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Now that said...I do find the dialogue kinda pointed with Zende/Luna. So I would say they learned from the last time they attempted any story having to do with consent. But we will see. 

[Contessa Donatella]

Oh, but I did. I read a ton of posts from you on this topic. 

What you've said is what lead me to believe that you are caught up in Bradley's net. Do you disagree that he exploits his fans with writing like this? And as for being offended, you are siding with rape & with rapists. Given a chance to reconsider, you do not. Given an out where you could say something different, you say the same things. When it's pointed out that the issue of criminality is moot. You say nothing. You just repeat what you've already said about criminality as if this were a case that would ever see the inside of a courtroom, which it would not. What would you say if you completely left the issue of criminality out of a single reply? 

Yet you did & you do excuse this rapist. 

I'm just really disappointed. And you are mad. 

It's more enjoyable not to be disappointed or to be mad. 

Bottom line this is the writer's fault. I'm sure he likes to stir fans up. You should be mad at him. I know I would be disappointed in him except I believe he has exploited his own fans before. So I am cynical & have no expectation that he is above writing crap like this. 

Just like that old saw that there is no such thing as bad publicity. He thinks as long as the fans are watching & discussing that he is doing the right thing. I don't agree. 

 

 

[Maxim]

At this point I think engaging with this person ON THIS topic is pointless... to the person engaging. It's just losing your time. They will twist it like you somehow didn't understand them and you are the bad guy/gwurl. That's why I posted the gif of hitting a head against a hard surface. It's the way I felt and still do. They repeat the same things every day. Also... I detect a scent of brutal insensitivity... to people who may be victims reading this. We gave hints that this conversation should seize, but no... THEY HAVE TO BE RIGHT. We  have to HAVE A TRIAL to decide if this is rape. Give me a break. I was not born yesterday. 

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[Contessa Donatella]

I understand. And, I understood your GIF. Completely. I guess it's because I know him well from both DAYS & GH discussions that I feel like ... giving another chance? But, I also am not wanting to prolong something unnecessarily. So, I will just see what he says & then, I will leave it be. 

[ranger1rg]

-- Not caught up in "Bradley's net." Anyone who reads my posts here knows that. I have said multiple times that this storyline is horrendous.

-- I NEVER sided with rape and rapists. That is a lie.

-- Reconsider what? I've listened to both of you and I disagree. You gave me the chance to say something different? Huh???

-- Leave criminality out of the discussion? I do not believe that's even possible. If you're telling me this case would   never reach a courtroom, it's because there was no crime. There was no rape.

-- Do I "excuse this rapist"?  I reject your premise. Zende is not a rapist.

 

 

-- I took nothing out of context. I twisted nothing.

-- I was rude to you when I called you "honey"? Dude, do you understand this board and how people talk. I was responding to your gif of someone banging their head against a desk. I responded to a gif. Did I call you rude? No, because on the "rudeness scale," neither of us was.

-- My apology was clear and direct: "I am sorry this Zende/Luna storyline has triggered any rape survivor, and I am sorry if my comments triggered any rape survivor." I think it was clear that YOU were included in that apology because you shared your story.

-- I never made this topic or this discussion about me.

-- I am not arguing and fighting with "everyone here." The number of people discussing this is really small -- because it's become a catfight.

[Contessa Donatella]

There is a total disconnect between what I said & your reply. I won't concern myself anymore. It would be useless. I am done. 

[Maxim]

I am looking forward to seeing less of rapists and more of Hollis on my screen. For the interested birds... Go and read the spoilers section. 

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