Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Discussion Thread

[Liberty City]

Please register in order to view this content

 

A young woman, destined to slay vampires, demons and other infernal creatures, deals with her life fighting evil, with the help of her friends.

 

 

[Cat]

Last year doing lockdown, I re-watched Buffy Seasons 1-5, and it was so great coming back to the show and remembering how much it meant to me.

 

Currently on the final season of Angel and trying to push past how badly Joss Whedon treated Charisma Carpenter.

[MrPrezident]

Ugh! That asshat did everything in his power to completely destroy and dismantle her character in the fourth season! It's been almost 20 years and I'm still not over how she and her character were treated! It does bring me some joy and peace to know all these years later that he's finally getting his comeuppance!

[Cat]

 

Finally got his comeuppance, and it was her Twitter post (and her testimony in the Ray Fisher situation) that exposed him to the fandom.

 

He got pissed that she was pregnant (when every soap known to man at that time would be able to accommodate), destroyed her character, and killed her off. We never got to see an Angel-Cordy romance really take off and I'm still bummed about that!

 

Nevertheless, I am watching Angel S5 (for the first time in its entirety) because Spike, because W&H, and because I want to see what happens with Wes-Fred-Gunn. I also want to say that the show really missed a trick by not keeping Stephanie Romanov as Lilah around. This limp Eve character is not cutting it.

[DRW50]

Much as I enjoy a select few season 5 episodes, I generally just pretend Buffy ended after season 3. I did like Tara, but knowing Amber Benson is one of many actors who had a bad experience on the show has colored my memories. 

[MrPrezident]

Knowing it was her that took him down all these years later must've been major salt in the wound! I can't tell you the amount of times over the years I've gotten into it with fellow fans who dare defend him and his treatment of Cordelia during season 4 "But she was pregnant!" "She didn't tell him soon enough!" "They had to write around her pregnancy!" PUH-LEASE! Us soap fans know how to disguise a pregnancy that doesn't include the ick inducing, character destroying methods he came up with just to stick it to an actress he deemed difficult. He knew exactly what he was doing the entire time. Then to fire her, not even tell her and let her find out through the media? Girl, my blood still boils! And Cangel, just like GH's Jarly (Sarah Brown's Carly and Jason) SIGH... my love for these couples that never got to be still yearns and burns decades later.

 

And yes, Eve was just awful! Lilah Jr? More like Gavin Jr! I still have a hard time swallowing the amount of love season 5 gets when to me it just feels so off and not at all like the show I fell in love with the first 3 seasons. Granted, I was bitter as hell over Carpenter's firing. All that time wasted trying to get the show renewed for a 5th season just to have my favorite written off with barely a mention... Talk about a major slap in the face! I'm just now starting to come around to season 5. It doesn't irritate me watching it quite as much as it used to. And even I can't deny the brilliance of some episodes... but when you remove the heart of a show in such a disrespectful way, it's kind of hard to get over.

 

I honestly kind of stopped watching Buffy after season 3 since my 2 favs Angel and Cordy moved to a different show. I ended up watching the majority of it (I think I missed a bit of season 7) and agree, Tara was a major standout. So naturally, she became another casualty.  I did love Anya as well. Another character to meet a grisly end. 

 

And since I'm still a bitter Betty can we talk about how awful Xander is? He's insufferable! Joss must've molded his character after himself.

[Cat]

 

IA that S1-3 were glorious and established an emotional connection that I have rarely felt for any TV show since.

 

S4 was underrated IMO because I enjoyed that too. It felt like a goodbye to the precedents set in S1-3, though, and for that reason, was somewhat bittersweet.

 

What I found hard in S5 (apart from The Body, which is one of the best episodes of TV I ever saw) was the feeling of pessimism and depression. Obviously Buffy was not going to bounce back from what happened with Joyce. It was just this feeling of joylessness that permeated in S6-7. Losing Giles IMO was a big mistake.

 

Also I found Glory a poor Big Bad and for that reason S5 always felt a little overrated for me.

[DRW50]

 

She was a terrible actress. I'm not even sure she was an actress, maybe she was a stunt person in that role, but she was terrible. By that point the season-long Big Bad concept (which also caused a lot of problems in season 4) wasn't needed anyway. 

 

Joylessness and pessimism is about right.  What made it worse and what makes the episodes so hard to watch is the unhappiness of the actors seeps through the screen. The spark was long gone. 

 

Xander was weak and pathetic on many occasions (especially his actions at the end of season 2), but I did like Nicholas Brendan's work and his chemistry with Charisma. The character completely lost his way in season 4 and we just got constant reminders of what a loser he was, dragging on and on and on. And Brendan's many struggles since have made rewatching any of his material just about impossible.

Edited June 11, 2021 by DRW50

[te.]

You know, I've said that I can understand the Melrose producers for getting pissed with Hunter Tylo for getting pregnant just as she was cast; not that she didn't deserve her settlement but I at least get why they weren't pleased. I don't get getting angry with Charisma at all - she had been on his shows for six years at that point and by all accounts was a team player; at the same time, newly married woman in her early 30s getting pregnant isn't exactly shocking, it's something that just kind of happens and something you plan around just in case. I guess not out-right firing her for getting pregnant saved him a settlement even if it's blatantly obvious that it's what happened.

[MrPrezident]

If he were a woman he would've been fired by season 4.

Edited June 11, 2021 by MrPrezident

[Cat]

 

Absolutely. Cordelia was the heart IMO and losing that (making her essentially a groomer of a teenager) and conflating her actual pregnancy with the birth of some kind of monstrous entity -- wooo. Joss Whedon has got ISSUES. As @te. just said, everything he did was to fire her for falling pregnant -- but without actually risking a lawsuit for wrongful termination. He kept her there until she had her baby, then fired her. It was so horrific, and the press who were completely enthralled by JW played it very lowkey and like it wasn't a big deal.

 

And in trying to ruin the character of Cordy, Whedon very nearly risked the cancellation of the show itself. Season 5 was basically its 'one last chance' season.

 

Honestly, I was so glad when Boreanaz spoke up in support of Charisma, and she tweeted back to him "I know you do, David." It was a nice direct acknowledgement because you could tell that CC and DB got along and had a good working relationship. When Entertainment Weekly did their Angel special, even though she had been ingloriously fired, I noticed Carpenter sat in the chair next to Boreanaz throughout, and it made me wonder if DB had requested it that way (just as her requested Nicholas Brendon not join the main cast for EW's Buffy special.

 

You know, I even (totally irrationally) felt slightly aggrieved at the time at Amy Acker (Fred) about CC's firing. Whedon thought Amy was the bee's knees and mentioned how fantastic she was constantly. She was clearly, physically, his dream girl. Re-watching Angel recently, I realise that I like Fred because Amy brings a soulful quality to the character. The fact is, Fred and Cordy could and DID co-exist beautifully in the Angelverse -- it was only Whedon who subliminally couldn't have more than one female in the main team.

 

Lilah --  such an underrated character. Ruthless born of sheer will to survive. She ate rats in a sewer just to stay alive. And she loved Wesley, not for the man she wanted him to be, but for the man he was. A strong, conflicted villainess, and I have no idea why they killed her off when they knew W&H would be coming back big the following season.

 

Re: Xander. After S3, he really turned into a dope. I also (this is unpopular) wasn't all that crazy about RoboticAnya.

 

 

 

Yeah, you cold tell everybody was deeply unhappy. They should have ended it S5 as was the original plan. It would have been leaving on a relative high, with no loose ends.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Cat

[MrPrezident]

Yes! I love their friendship. Also something worth noting, Charisma unfollowed both Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof after the whole ordeal... No big surprise that they would take Whedon's side considering they were the only ones invited to his house after hours to fawn all over him. Also, just to clarify as I'm sure it's a typo, but Boreanaz is the one that requested Nicholas Brendon not attend the reunion. (OMG side note: there's a very risque Boreanaz video floating around the web that made all my gay teenage dreams come true!)

[Cat]

 

Ohhhhh there is? Time to hop on Google! He had a great ass back in the day.

 

Yes, David Boreanaz specifically requested that Nicholas Brendon not sit in with the main cast at the EW reunion. This was just after Brendon's arrest or conviction (can't remember which) for beating up his girlfriend.

 

Wow, Charisma unfollowed Amy Acker and Alexis Denisof? That's meaningful. Amy Acker did eventually post some kind of "I didn't see any of that going on but I support Charisma, of course" Tweet after fans pressed her on it. I believe it was Alyson Hannigan (Willow) and Denisof (her husband) who stayed conspicuously silent. Yes, AA, AD and AH were always being invited to Whedon's Improv Dinners at his house, but I noticed that Carpenter and Gellar were conspicuously not invited. I imagine those sessions must have been very 'Suck Up to Teacher.'

 

Some years after Buffy/Angel, Whedon directed As You Like It and cast Acker and Denisof in the two main roles. I actually enjoyed the movie, but I remember thinking 'Oh, he's trying to make these two happen' when I watched it. It always surprised me that Acker and Denisof never made it bigger. Denisof in particular would be a talented character actor.

[Taoboi]

I know of one of those videos.

Please register in order to view this content

 

 

I said I would stay away, but god if this discussion isn't warming my Buffyverse heart. But we know I'm such a Charisma fan. 

 

Yes, I do believe JW modeled Xander after himself.

 

I liked Season 5 *runs and hides* But I see it more from a writer's point of view then. I would be curious to see if I felt the same way on a rewatch.

 

As for my main love ANGEL (which I'm binging--currently at start of Season 2), I have been of the strong belief that when a showrunner that was there forever and a creator of said show leaves, the show suffers. Since most of what made ANGEL great (or bad) was due to David Greenwalt's being the main creator/showrunner Season 1 and 3, it was no surprise how oh so different Season 5 was when he left. Such a dark and deep show and that 180 into sun and light. Yeahhhhh no. lol. Still loved Season 5 and I liked from the return of Lindsey to Cordy's return to the end, it got some of its darkness back. 

[Cat]

 

Oooo S2 was so good, wasn't it? It had the right amount of humor and darkness IMO. Season 3 was great too (although I hated Holtz).

 

I forgot about David Greenwalt being showrunner and HW. He also did great things on Buffy S1-3 and his episodes were often standouts.