You have a way with words

I *do* think, as much as I am wearyof a soap ever trying to do a "current" teen bullying story again, there is story to be mined there from the fact that some gay bullying can be seen as repressed attraction. dunno--it would be hard to do well, and I don't want it to become a same sex version of the now hopelessly dated and horrible soap trope of the saintly woman helping the abusive guy turn around and find love--and yet, there is some genuine reality to that situation (and an undeniable aspect to it that people find comeplling to watch.)

I never liked or wanted the idea of Shane and Jack to go that way--but that was mainly cuz I foudn the story badly acted and, more so, badly written (I *do* think someone--RC, FV, the director, the actors, flirted with the idea in some scenes though and it's not just fans wanting teen slash fiction.) But it does seem dishonest in this day and age to have a story about a bullied kid--one that the writers told the press was meant to reflect the current teen bullying problem--a bullied kid who shows, for lack of a better word, obvious gay characteristics, and then not to address the gay angle. But they woulda done a bad job--at least judging by the rest of the story--so...

Of course the problem with gay bad characters as you know is that if they're the only gay on the show it just seems like an old 1950s Hollywood negative stereotype. But saintly gay characters (just like the old saintly black characters are dull, especially on a soap. They've had trouble finding a middle ground (Bianca on AMC moreor less works for me, though she has been shown as a saint and a gay martyr and, often though this has improved, fairly sexless, but...) The Kish dynamic, despite some clumsy writing worked well too I thought (even if they had to make Kyle a bit less of a creep than he was before.)

I do think a lot of it is down to how uncomfortable soap execs and network execs are--I've heard stories from the actual writers (I'm sure most on here know who I mean) about just what an extreme nightmare every single line of dialogue they wrote for all the gay AMC stuff under Broderick in the 90s (from Michael, the shooting, to Kevin) was--how many hoops they had to jump through, and how many people they needed approval from to clear everything, and how much more work it was to get any of it on screen. I mean this is compared to stuff that was easy to get cleared like rape and murder. That was the late 90s--and as has been said, it seemed to get often even harder after that when soaps got more conservative. So I do hope that the PP "We're more edgy!" dynamics, and the fact they do have much more leeway in terms of how many execs they need approval from and advertiser approval means that some of the edginess will just mean that--even if there are some mistakes--the writers will be able to tell these stories with more nuance and honesty. That may be hoping for too much, but it already seems (rumours of why SUsan left as HW aside) a much more welcoming environment than ANY of the current daytime soaps have going for letting writers and the other sinvolved tell the stories how they want.

You think so????

Right--which goes back to romance novel cliches too (the "bad boy" who just needs a good woman's love and sympathy.) Some of this is compelling and, like I said, comes from reality, but they just have to be careful how to do it (of course you get into major trouble with a character like Todd who I think--more or less--was written well, even his abusive past explainign some of his issues, until they wanted to put him in major romances and came up with problems.)

\

And maybe some of it is simply unavoidable. A lot of romance readers (and non romance readers--I should stop picking on them) find the idea of a rapist alluring, and unless he's shown as Billy Clyde Tuggle, or maybe even so, some of them will regardless. But...

that's why so many people love Todd Manning and also nowadays they love Jack Manning, also mostly due to AT's physical appearance

The producers and writers of ATWT loved to pat themselves on the back for the inclusion of kissing scenes between Luke and Noah but I can remember Melrose Place having a kiss in the '90s and I wasn't even an avid viewer of that show.

Well that's not the best example--you do remember the reaction about how it was filmed or not filmed, more like it (I remember people talking about it and I was 13 lol) But I do agree with you that daytime has been lagging behind since the late 90s at least. (There are some milestones--OLTL's Billy Douglas was the first gay teen major character in any American series, by four years until My So-Called Life, 4 years later AMC dealt with the dangers of "ex-gay" reparation therapy in quite a lot of depth something a soap five years later prob wouldn't be able to touch and very few network tv shows have since, etc)

Here's the hilarious Melrose kiss http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcdxIaXOtZc

I know the fact that it is daytime and the demographic of the daytime viewer has much to do with how content of story lines are focused and written, and for this reason, I don't expect any of the remaining daytime soaps to do anything groundbreaking in that regard unless not doing it somehow threatens their bottom line.

I agree. Look how OLTL--after the Kish sex scene, etc, something Frank and Ron should have been proud of, so isntantly backtracked (and yet the ratings FELL not climbed immediately after they cut the characters)--and acted all apologetic.

I think the soap fanbase belief is largely untrue. It's ironic, now that soaps agressively want a female 18-49 demo, they get even tamer--when every statistic shows that those generations take things like gay issues much more as no big deal (I mean Frons wanted AMC to become a daytime Sex and the City--and yet, as much as I was not a big fan, that show was filled with graphic sexual talk and a lot of gay references that were treated as no big deal, something the soap would have been terrified to do.) I also think a lot of the older soap fans are a lot less conservative than given credit (I know a lot of grandmas who watch soaps and love their gay grandsons who happen to bemy friends.) And as I've mentioned a lot of teen, 20something and 30 year old women find the gay love stories appealing and romantic--among female comic book readers in N America a recent study showed, gay love story comics (based on, or translations of the long popular Yaoi romance comics from Japan which are primarily written by women and read by women) have over only the past decade becomes the biggest selling genre. Of course many of these are horrible, weird, idealized or even rape fantasy comics (male/male rape is popular in the yaoi world for whatever reason) but some are very good. Iloved the UK QUeer as Folk and largely hated the US remake, but I did read that Showtime was surprised at how huge a female fanbase it had. By no means am I saying soaps should ditch straight romances as their main focus whenit comes to love stories--they shouldn't, but the execs should wake up and not be so scared that if they did a gay love story it would only appeal to a few gay men.

Agnes Nixon always said how if you tell a story *well*, issues like that usually won't matter and people will be compelled to watch. Sure she got angry letters about Carla kissing a white doctor--but for the most part that meant people were watching. I really do hope PP manages to (maybe not all at once or straight away, but over time) help change some of this, as I don't see the existing network soaps, as you say, improving int hat respect, frankly, ever as they slowly die off.

Perhaps if these digital/Internet reboots break ground and generate lots of buzz, accolades and viewers in the process, maybe then the networks may allow their soaps to try something daring but honestly, I expect the opposite from soaps on the networks right now because many of these writers are 'nervous' in the wake of all the cancellations that have occurred in the last 5 or 6 years.

Agreed on both accounts.

You think so????

Yeah I do--it wasn't all just fans wanting to see something that wasn't there. I'mnot saying they did this *much* but I'm sure they were aware when writing it...

I don't think DAYS has treated Will/Sonny or Sonny/Brian differently from a straight couple. The shower scene with Will/Sonny, the extended kissing, Brian trying to undo Sonny's buckle. This idea that daytime is super cautious about gay portrayals is not borne out by my recent experience.

Edited April 20, 201312 yr by jfung79

I don't think DAYS has treated Will/Sonny or Sonny/Brian differently from a straight couple. The shower scene with Will/Sonny, the extended kissing, Brian trying to undo Sonny's buckle. This idea that daytime is super cautious about gay portrayals is not borne out by my recent experience.

For me it just seems, forced... I dunno--they certainly are doing it better than Luke and Noah though at least in terms of physical aspects.

ANyway thanks for confirming that I am not completely forgetting the end of OLTL and that Cutter did phone Alex from jail. An easy way to write him back into the show. (WOuldn't it be hard in court to prove that he slipped the drugs into the man's drink that kille dhim anyway?)

Well that's not the best example--you do remember the reaction about how it was filmed or not filmed, more like it (I remember people talking about it and I was 13 lol) But I do agree with you that daytime has been lagging behind since the late 90s at least. (There are some milestones--OLTL's Billy Douglas was the first gay teen major character in any American series, by four years until My So-Called Life, 4 years later AMC dealt with the dangers of "ex-gay" reparation therapy in quite a lot of depth something a soap five years later prob wouldn't be able to touch and very few network tv shows have since, etc)

Here's the hilarious Melrose kiss http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcdxIaXOtZc

I agree. Look how OLTL--after the Kish sex scene, etc, something Frank and Ron should have been proud of, so isntantly backtracked (and yet the ratings FELL not climbed immediately after they cut the characters)--and acted all apologetic.

I think the soap fanbase belief is largely untrue. It's ironic, now that soaps agressively want a female 18-49 demo, they get even tamer--when every statistic shows that those generations take things like gay issues much more as no big deal (I mean Frons wanted AMC to become a daytime Sex and the City--and yet, as much as I was not a big fan, that show was filled with graphic sexual talk and a lot of gay references that were treated as no big deal, something the soap would have been terrified to do.) I also think a lot of the older soap fans are a lot less conservative than given credit (I know a lot of grandmas who watch soaps and love their gay grandsons who happen to bemy friends.) And as I've mentioned a lot of teen, 20something and 30 year old women find the gay love stories appealing and romantic--among female comic book readers in N America a recent study showed, gay love story comics (based on, or translations of the long popular Yaoi romance comics from Japan which are primarily written by women and read by women) have over only the past decade becomes the biggest selling genre. Of course many of these are horrible, weird, idealized or even rape fantasy comics (male/male rape is popular in the yaoi world for whatever reason) but some are very good. Iloved the UK QUeer as Folk and largely hated the US remake, but I did read that Showtime was surprised at how huge a female fanbase it had. By no means am I saying soaps should ditch straight romances as their main focus whenit comes to love stories--they shouldn't, but the execs should wake up and not be so scared that if they did a gay love story it would only appeal to a few gay men.

Agnes Nixon always said how if you tell a story *well*, issues like that usually won't matter and people will be compelled to watch. Sure she got angry letters about Carla kissing a white doctor--but for the most part that meant people were watching. I really do hope PP manages to (maybe not all at once or straight away, but over time) help change some of this, as I don't see the existing network soaps, as you say, improving int hat respect, frankly, ever as they slowly die off.

Agreed on both accounts.

Yeah I do--it wasn't all just fans wanting to see something that wasn't there. I'm not saying they did this *much* but I'm sure they were aware when writing it...

I remember they blamed the actors, especially the one who played Kyle for the couple being axed, when it was clearly the writing and also with the homophobes threatening to boycott

I absolutely love Yaoi, they have very good love stories in there.. yeah you are seeing that gay fiction is highly popular.. many females I know who love it tell me how awesome it is. also they like seeing two guys make out

yeah there were several scenes where there were pretty strong hints that they wanted to tease a Shane/Jack love story.. I wonder if the actors were aware? I know the writers were very much aware of this

For me it just seems, forced... I dunno--they certainly are doing it better than Luke and Noah though at least in terms of physical aspects.

ANyway thanks for confirming that I am not completely forgetting the end of OLTL and that Cutter did phone Alex from jail. An easy way to write him back into the show. (WOuldn't it be hard in court to prove that he slipped the drugs into the man's drink that kille dhim anyway?)

i agree.... as much as I applaud Days for doing it, and I am a fan of the story, but it DOES seems forced and kind of out of place.. and I have to admit, Sonny/Will/Brian is very boring.. the whole story bores me to no end..

I bet this was taken during the filming of the opening. They look so cute!

What happened to his face? He doesn't look good at all. Like its different

I bet this was taken during the filming of the opening. They look so cute!

My Bora is back!!!

<3

My 2nd all time favorite soap couple.

What happened to his face? He doesn't look good at all. Like its different

Pretty sure he's just squinting

Btw, did anyone see on the TOLN thing with Michael Fairman that Tuc said he filmed part of his clip for the opening with Shenaz? I thought that was really strange. I hope David and Rama aren't a couple.

Edited April 20, 201312 yr by alexisfan07

Wow EricMontreal22, you're good! I would've never have thought to look up the actual clip (LOL).

I too hope that Rama and David are not paired together. David would be a definite downgrade from Vimal. The intelligence factor alone...

No DRama please (yes, that would be their couple name)

David's good looking. But, he's about 3 french fries short of a Happy Meal.

Tuc also mentioned working with Laura H. I hope David is one of Destiny's sugar daddies. An affair between them would be so scandelous. There's history between them. They may even be hot.

Edited April 20, 201312 yr by Dee41

I too hope that Rama and David are not paired together. David would be a definite downgrade from Vimal. The intelligence factor alone...

Rama is a major step down from Dorian and the intelligence factor alone