The worst part about it was they didn't care to put any effort into the whole thing.

It was just Katherine is Jill's daughter. The end.

Which is why they were out of story in less than a year.

It was Smith, not Latham.

Ah, let 'em have Latham for this one. Smith has more than enough [!@#$%^&*] to go down for.

Y&R has ALWAYS been treated with disdain from certain fans.

The same fans who LOVED their soaps (DOOL, SB, Passions, AMC, AW, ATWT, OLTL) which were producing crap while Y&R was constantly knocking it out of the park.

I'll admit Y&R often left me cold during the glory days. The stories were fascinating, if awfully slow; but the day-to-day dialogue and performances from some of the actors...?

In the mid- and late-'90's, however, as a lot of once-great soaps started to go downhill, I began appreciating just how consistent Y&R had been all along. Even when Kay Alden officially became HW, and I was certain Y&R would start to decline, she amazed me by how much she stuck to Papa Bell's template and approach to storytelling.

Ah, let 'em have Latham for this one. Smith has more than enough [!@#$%^&*] to go down for.

No. It was definitely Smith.

Latham however did continue Smith's habit of unnecessarily introducing new characters.

I'll admit Y&R often left me cold during the glory days.

Outside of longtime fans NOBODY cared about Y&R until it became clear it would most likely be the last soap standing.

To me Y&R had a certain mystique, a certain je ne sais quoi, an ability of retaining its own unique character even when it was at times painfully boring or they did horrible retcons like Jill being Katherine's daughter, it had this ability of staying classy and above the fray. For me it was Latham who tore that down, and unfortunately once the show lost its identity it was never able to get it back.

I'm all for soaps evolving with the times, I know there are some who want soaps to remain "traditional" no matter what, when if anything, staying too traditional is what has killed the genre. I don't agree with this camp usually. But with Y&R, I do think it was a shame for them to give up what set them apart and decline to the point where they are now "just another soap"... and a bad one at that.

I do think Sheffer is the problem moreso than MAB, and I'd be fine with MAB sticking around if they get her a better co-head writer.

Edited October 2, 201114 yr by juppiter

To me Y&R had a certain mystique, a certain je ne sais quoi, an ability of retaining its own unique character even when it was at times painfully boring or they did horrible retcons like Jill being Katherine's daughter, it had this ability of staying classy and above the fray. For me it was Latham who tore that down, and unfortunately once the show lost its identity it was never able to get it back.

I'm all for soaps evolving with the times, I know there are some who want soaps to remain "traditional" no matter what, when if anything, staying too traditional is what has killed the genre. I don't agree with this camp usually. But with Y&R, I do think it was a shame for them to give up what set them apart and decline to the point where they are now "just another soap"... and a bad one at that.

I do think Sheffer is the problem mores than MAB, and I'd be fine with MAB sticking around if they get her a better co-head writer.

This, I agree with wholeheartedly. Y&R was, although for much of its run the second youngest soap on the air, like HM The Queen Mother, above the fray, a bit gauzy and serene, never changing, always the same, consistent and determined to stay that way.

And then Smith began chipping away at it before Latham took the final blows, knocking the once serene Queen from her lofty perch, down among the scum. Finally, we were then we were treated to Sheffer kicking the corpse as it gasped for air, struggling to live, knowing that undignified death was the foregone conclusion.

And then Smith began chipping away at it before Latham took the final blows, knocking the once serene Queen from her lofty perch, down among the scum. Finally, we were then we were treated to Sheffer kicking the corpse as it gasped for air, struggling to live, knowing that undignified death was the foregone conclusion.

Exactly.

At this point who would buy Victor & Nikki as a couple? Who cares about Jack & Jabot? Who cares about Ashley's happiness? Who cares about Newman Enterprises? Paul who? Neil who? Nina who? Diane who? Jill who? Lauren who?

Edited October 2, 201114 yr by DeeeDee

It was a terrible idea from the beginning.

What's worse was it was done for no other reason to marginalize both actresses & their respective characters.

And neither character nor their relationship has been the same since,.

Not really.

She had her faults but her best was better than ANYTHING in Daytime this decade.

As was the rest of Daytime.

Not true.

Y&R has ALWAYS been treated with disdain from certain fans.

The same fans who LOVED their soaps (DOOL, SB, Passions, AMC, AW, ATWT, OLTL) which were producing crap while Y&R was constantly knocking it out of the park.

As always, everyone as the right to his or her opinion. But to conclude that the only reason Smith made Jill Katherine's daughter was to marginalize both actresses and their characters has no basis in fact. Both were very popular characters and actresses. It would appear that Smith went to them to help spike interest in the show again, as well as the ratings. The execution of the story suffered for various reasons, though I don't think you can fault the idea itself. The Jill/Katherine feud had run it's course IMHO. There needed to be a new dynamic, a shot in the arm as it were. The one Smith chose might not have been it, but at least he tried to shake things up a bit. Alden's problem throughout her tenure as head writer was an inability to come up with fresh ideas or interesting new characters. The few she introduced pretty much bombed. Her Y&R stayed true to Bill Bell's vision, but she never expanded on the vision. She played it safe, and the audience noticed. That said, I still feel she's the best head writer for restoring the Y&R we all knew and loved. I'd like to see her teamed with Smith, though. I think their perfect counterpoint to the other. But before that can happen, Sheffer and Hamner have to go. Keep Maria as "Executive Whatever" if they must, but definitely get rid of Hogan and Scott. They are the worst possible writers for Y&R, and it shows.

At the time I didn't have a problem with the story, mostly because I enjoyed the material for three great actresses (Jeanne, Julianna, Jess). I can see where it did become a problem, but I don't think it should have been a fatal blow. I also think both characters, especially Jill, had skirted on the edge of irrelevancy more than once, due to writing issues. The Jill/Katharine feud had usually brought them back to prominence, but how long could this go on?

Looking back I do think that the show should have found another way, but generally I think, in Jill's case, she would have been hit no matter what.

As always, everyone as the right to his or her opinion.

There are opinions & there are facts.

But to conclude that the only reason Smith made Jill Katherine's daughter was to marginalize both actresses and their characters has no basis in fact.

But it does.

The simple fact that they became joined at the hip LITERALLY as soon as they found out they were Mother/Daughter & did pretty much NOTHING on the backburner for the better part of two & 1/2 years is indisputable.

Both were very popular characters and actresses.

So?

Y&R has plenty of popular characters & actresses.

Hasn't stopped the writers from screwing them over.

It would appear that Smith went to them to help spike interest in the show again, as well as the ratings.

There was already interest in the show.

Smith used the "twist" as cheap stunt much like Maria/Hogan soap poach/stunt cast now.

The execution of the story suffered for various reasons, though I don't think you can fault the idea itself.

The Jill/Katherine feud had run it's course IMHO.

Not at all.

Their relationship is Y&R's heart & has sustained the show for nearly it's entire run.

They are two characters & actresses you literally can pair & almost ALWAYS get a worthwhile scene even when the material is subpar.

Their feud didn't "run its course" the writers just lacked creativity.

Alden's problem throughout her tenure as head writer was an inability to come up with fresh ideas or interesting new characters.

Again her tenure had its faults but it was still the best soap of the era.

Also she didn't need to flood the canvas with unnecessary characters like Latham or over rely on cheap stunts like Jack Smith to create good soap.

You may not have liked it but to try & justify your opinion through ratings (which had eroded for ALL soaps) & internet fandom (which has pretty much always treated Y&R like trash) has no basis in fact.

The few she introduced pretty much bombed.

The same could be said of Jack Smith.

And the majority of characters of his that WERE "successful" (Gloria, Kevin, Daniel) were from RappaDavidsoning them onto the canvas at the expense of almost every other character on the show.

What's your point?

Her Y&R stayed true to Bill Bell's vision, but she never expanded on the vision.

She played it safe, and the audience noticed.

Jack Smith, Latham & Maria/Hogan all "took risks", the audience noticed, hated it & ratings have fallen to record lows.

Again what's your point?

That said, I still feel she's the best head writer for restoring the Y&R we all knew and loved.

Wait.

She didn't "take risks", her characters were "unsuccessful", "tanked" in the ratings & her tenure wasn't "fresh" yet you want her back?

That's completely illogical.

I'd like to see her teamed with Smith, though. I think their perfect counterpoint to the other.

Jack Smith is a B&B writer.

He's much more suited to that show, its characters & its pacing.

As always, everyone as the right to his or her opinion. But to conclude that the only reason Smith made Jill Katherine's daughter was to marginalize both actresses and their characters has no basis in fact. Both were very popular characters and actresses. It would appear that Smith went to them to help spike interest in the show again, as well as the ratings. The execution of the story suffered for various reasons, though I don't think you can fault the idea itself. The Jill/Katherine feud had run it's course IMHO. There needed to be a new dynamic, a shot in the arm as it were. The one Smith chose might not have been it, but at least he tried to shake things up a bit.

I understand the impulse to wonder, "What if Katherine and Jill were mother and daughter?!" And I can see how the dynamic seemed juicy and appealing. But the execution was weak, and it didn't ultimately further the characters or their feud. After the drama of the reveal, they just sort of wound up hanging out together.

I loathe these sort of retcons on principle. It just feels so fake, IMO, to foist these genetic connections on characters and relationships that were already special.

At the time I didn't have a problem with the story, mostly because I enjoyed the material for three great actresses (Jeanne, Julianna, Jess). I can see where it did become a problem, but I don't think it should have been a fatal blow. I also think both characters, especially Jill, had skirted on the edge of irrelevancy more than once, due to writing issues. The Jill/Katharine feud had usually brought them back to prominence, but how long could this go on?

Looking back I do think that the show should have found another way, but generally I think, in Jill's case, she would have been hit no matter what.

When I started getting into soaps in '96-'97, Jill felt pretty irrelevant. I'm not saying she was irrelevant, but that she was sort of on the outskirts of the show, dating Keith (?) Dennison and lingering about. It wasn't until I read up on Y&R's history that I realized what an important character she was. The introduction of Billy and Mac, and the amplified Jill/Katherine feud, shored the character up. But yeah, it seemed even Bill Bell was a little lost with her for a while there.

but I don't think it should have been a fatal blow.

It shouldn't have but that's the point.

If there had ever been an intention to use them they wouldn't have needed the "twist".

Their treatment & lack of story in the aftermath supports that.

The Jill/Katharine feud had usually brought them back to prominence, but how long could this go on?

Forever.

That was one of the best things about Y&R.

Unfortunately Latham ruined the characters so much they can't ever go back to what they once were.

but generally I think, in Jill's case, she would have been hit no matter what.

The show often takes Jill (and Jess) for granted.

However the real issue is Y&R's refusal to tell non Newman stories which is a problem that affects everyone (including Jill).

But yeah, it seemed even Bill Bell was a little lost with her for a while there.

Not so much.

In fact he was actually using her MORE just in an inconsistent way (due to other issues).

What do you think Latham did to the characters? I didn't think she had a lot of story for Katharine. Jill had the Ji Min story, briefly. I guess there was Cane.

Not so much.

In fact he was actually using her MORE just in an inconsistent way (due to other issues).

What was going on?

I just remember not really seeing her as prominent/important at all during the time when I first started watching. She almost seemed like a Gina-level character. But Bell probably knew he was going to do the Billy/Mac story, so he had stuff coming up for her, anyway.