I can. Spike, Damon Salvatore, Logan Echolls, Chuck Bass, Eric Northman, Don Draper, Sylar (he's not supposed to be a romantic hero but I've seen woman swoon over him).

Fair enough but Im not sure I would see any of these characters as "heros" in the same sense as they do the 3 I mentioned but I guess we can agree to disagree.

I don't watch any of the FX network shows anymore, since Damages went to Direct TV. I do know what you're referring to CarlD and that's why I don't watch Rescue Me or The Sons of Anarchy or Justfied. Yet, those three shows are basically about the male protagonists (and their bi**ches). I can see why those shows are mysogynist oasis.

And any show on the FX network. Their "heroes" turn lesbians straight, rape women who secretly want it...it's a misogynist paradise.

I don't watch any of the FX network shows anymore, since Damages went to Direct TV. I do know what you're referring to CarlD and that's why I don't watch Rescue Me or The Sons of Anarchy or Justfied. Yet, those three shows are basically about the male protagonists (and their bi**ches). I can see why those shows are mysogynist oasis.

Isn't FX a network geared towards men allegedly?

A lot of women loved Nip/Tuck. I think it's the idea of these "hot" men who abuse women.

Denis Leary is not so hot, so that doesn't get as much reaction.

The other pervasive idea in these type of shows is that the women don't matter, other than as blow-up dolls and people to deal with the kids. It's the relationships between the men that matter, and of course, those relationships are strictly heterosexual, aside from the occasional tired "wink" in between scores of episodes featuring every anti-gay stereotype under the sun.

Oh dear. It looks like I managed to derail yet another thread. LOL!

Tying this back to the WLS list, I guess I could make the case that misogyny, lack of diversity, over-reliance on cliches, etc.. all comes from the same place: a basic lack of creativity. So if I had to choose a number one on the list I would go with the recycling of (un)creative talent and corporate interference. IMO, those two things pretty much lead to everything else on the list.

Yes, I do think it's the fairytale/harlequin romance belief/desire to see that a women's love can/could change the bad boy into becoming the "better man" for his woman. I'm going to be honest, I watched Nip/Tuck for the first 3 seasons and I fell into that desire to want to see Christian change/become better, but not for any woman, but for his best friend/partner Sean. Yet, Sean was also a sexist jerk who used the women in his life to make him feel better/important.

A lot of women loved Nip/Tuck. I think it's the idea of these "hot" men who abuse women.

Denis Leary is not so hot, so that doesn't get as much reaction.

A lot of women loved Nip/Tuck. I think it's the idea of these "hot" men who abuse women.

Denis Leary is not so hot, so that doesn't get as much reaction.

The other pervasive idea in these type of shows is that the women don't matter, other than as blow-up dolls and people to deal with the kids. It's the relationships between the men that matter, and of course, those relationships are strictly heterosexual, aside from the occasional tired "wink" in between scores of episodes featuring every anti-gay stereotype under the sun.

Obviously there is an audience for this it just never really sunk in to me as to why soaps felt they needed to move in this direction versus continuing to write for and showcase female centric or balanced stories. They chased a lot of their audience away and what did they gain from it?

I am going to be interested to see if the reboot at Days actually centers more of the storytelling with this reboot.

Back on topic.

Edited September 13, 201114 yr by JaneAusten

So, the responsibility falls mainly onto the shoulders of TPTB. It's not that we, the audience have a short attention span OR that we just don't have time to watch 5 hour serial dramas per week OR that we're bored with scripted shows.Yet, they really don't want to take any sort of responsibility at all in what's happened.

Oh dear. It looks like I managed to derail yet another thread. LOL!

Tying this back to the WLS list, I guess I could make the case that misogyny, lack of diversity, over-reliance on cliches, etc.. all comes from the same place: a basic lack of creativity. So if I had to choose a number one on the list I would go with the recycling of (un)creative talent and corporate interference. IMO, those two things pretty much lead to everything else on the list.

So, the responsibility falls mainly onto the shoulders of TPTB. It's not that we, the audience have a short attention span OR that we just don't have time to watch 5 hour serial dramas per week OR that we're bored with scripted shows.Yet, they really don't want to take any sort of responsibility at all in what's happened.

Most of the items in the top 25 list are related to showrunners and how they see the genre and how they have chosen to "evolve" it, It has not one thing to do with what the audience wanted to see

Of course people can point to AMC which overall is the least mysognist and more diverse show in recent years(barring Pratts tenure) and that balanced and more female centric stories don't work either.AMC does have african americans, a lesbian couple, and hispanic characters showcased

Edited September 13, 201114 yr by JaneAusten

I can. Spike, Damon Salvatore, Logan Echolls, Chuck Bass, Eric Northman, Don Draper, Sylar (he's not supposed to be a romantic hero but I've seen woman swoon over him).

Okay I know I'm threadjacking again but I wanted to address this. One of the differences I see in these cases is that for every one of these unfortunate men there is one or several seriously kick ass woman on the show to balance it out. Spike/Buffy, Logan/Veronica, Eric Northman/ (Pam/Tara/Marianne/Nan Flanagan/etc..) , Don Draper/Joan/Peggy/etc.. At the same time soaps were celebrating abuse of women they were trading out strong women in exchange for "feisty" ones. Strong women fight their battles, feisty ones end up needing to be rescued. Buffy was strong, Lois Lane was feisty.

Okay I know I'm threadjacking again but I wanted to address this. One of the differences I see in these cases is that for every one of these unfortunate men there is one or several seriously kick ass woman on the show to balance it out. Spike/Buffy, Logan/Veronica, Eric Northman/ (Pam/Tara/Marianne/Nan Flanagan/etc..) , Don Draper/Joan/Peggy/etc.. At the same time soaps were celebrating abuse of women they were trading out strong women in exchange for "feisty" ones. Strong women fight their battles, feisty ones end up needing to be rescued. Buffy was strong, Lois Lane was feisty.

Yet the focus from many vocal fans is often on how hot these men are - and if the women do get a reaction it's a more contemptuous one. It's similar to how many swooned over Angelus.

I don't really think this is off topic, because those in soaps have been desperately trying to imitate primetime for years. The likes of Guza and Sheffer have sneered at soaps for many years and clearly feel they are unworthy.

Of course people can point to AMC which overall is the least mysognist and more diverse show in recent years(barring Pratts tenure) and that balanced and more female centric stories don't work either.AMC does have african americans, a lesbian couple, and hispanic characters showcased

That's the only thing that makes me sad about AMC's ratings. People like Frons can point to that and say "See people don't tune in for the Hubbards (or Minx or Tad/Cara). Let's rape somebody!"

That's the only thing that makes me sad about AMC's ratings. People like Frons can point to that and say "See people don't tune in for the Hubbards (or Minx or Tad/Cara). Let's rape somebody!"

And that like it or not Pratt increased ratings. Not significantly but he did. HIs firing in no way was based on performance if ratings were the gage

You can now vote for the ones you think are the top 10 blunders.

http://www.welovesoaps.net/search/label/25%20Biggest%20Blunders?&max-results=9

You can now vote for the ones you think are the top 10 blunders.

http://www.welovesoa...?&max-results=9

Good. They also have a spot for "Other" where you can write in suggestions for things they missed.