OLTL: Discussion for the week of December 27

[Soapsuds]

Yup, me too!

[DRW50]

I remember how many were in awe of David Gregory when he first started, so this show tends to burn through positive first impressions very fast. If Josh Kelly can get through the dead zones like Terri Conn and through the show's horrific writing and need to write men as rapist thugs, then I'll be happy. So far I can't tell.

If the choice is between Joey as a misogynist/quasi-rapist (which is the only way Joey would have a lead role on today's OLTL) and no Joey at all I'd rather see no Joey. My guess is he'll be gone soon enough anyway.

[SFK]

People liked Ford from the get-go?? I could not STAND his choice to pop gum. I admittedly felt a little sorry for him when it looked like he'd been let go after all the [!@#$%^&*] talking I and others did, but that turned out not to be true and boy oh boy was that only the tip of the iceberg.

[Vee]

I think what we have to bear in mind is that so much of what gets the leading men lead status on ABC is when they're molded into those !@#$%^&*] types. It's not necessarily what the actors are, or all they can play - it's the writers or the network notes or both. I never thought David Gregory was terribly special, but I have been impressed with Kelly elsewhere.

Most likely, though, he is playing another !@#$%^&*] conman a la a million other current leads on daytime. Maybe the character will work but the pattern is very predictable, and I'd just as soon have a stronger Joey.

[DRW50]

The problem for me is that I think OLTL (and daytime's) definition of stronger would be a man who calls women whores, screws around at random, barely makes eye contact with scene partners, and possibly rapes in the name of love. If that's strong then I'd rather see no Joey. So far Cutter fits more of the bill of today's younger leading man -- edgy, no ties to anyone, and played by a hot body.

SFK, there was a lot of hoopla over Ford from the start because of scenes like pouring the bucket of water on himself.

[Vee]

I think that's ABC/Frons's profile for its current leads, and I think Y&R has adopted it. I also think it contributed to the re-recasting of Joey with someone more milquetoast, for a character ABC stalled OLTL on recasting for over a year.

But I do think any number of talented actors playing unfortunate assholes on daytime today could be playing more layered, textured, nuanced leading men than what they are given. And it's not enough for ABC to say to me that a character like Joey doesn't work because he's too nice. He's only too nice, or stupid, or immature as with the post-Fillion Joeys because they don't have much interest in writing for him or making him a priority beyond wearing the dunce cap. Especially when the actor in question doesn't grab them. I don't think Tom Degnan, Don Jeffcoat, or even Bruce Michael Hall were anyone's definition of setting the world on fire. But if you had a more compelling or dynamic actor in the role - whether it was Fillion, or Josh Kelly, or Chris McKenna or whoever else - there would be more pressure on the network or the creative staff to see Joey as more than just their pigeonholing of him as a namby-pamby schmuck. Joey is a good man, but he does not have to be a dope.

Granted, if there was a more interesting actor in the part, you are correct that ABCD would likely try to make Joey more like Rex or Billy Abbott. I do think the character needs more strength to him, but not in that way. It's admittedly a losing proposition given the way ABC handles their men, but that doesn't mean I'll stop hoping for better for the character, casting and writing-wise. But hey, maybe Tom Degnan will suddenly begin to dazzle me.

[DRW50]

I kind of wonder if any actor matters -- Nathan Fillion was wonderful in the role but I don't remember them giving him anything to do after his breakup with Dorian, and he was on the show for about a year and a half after that. Perhaps he did have plenty of story and it just didn't interest me, but when I go back and watch a few clips from that time he mostly seems to be a B-level leading man, in filler stories.

I think that when Disney took over ABC the view of leading men changed forever. Joey was a distant memory and someone like Jason Morgan was the future.

[Soapsuds]

+1 To all of it

I remember thinking who the [!@#$%^&*] is that after he poured the bucket of water on himself...lol....That wore off real quickly....lol

[Vee]

A character like Kevin and Joey is what the show chooses to make of it. Kevin as played by Dan Gauthier is a huge favorite, and OLTL has sought to bring him back for some time to no avail. Joey could be many things, but ABC has no interest and I've begun to think OLTL has been stuck writing for John (and Rex and Todd, but that's really their own fault) for so long that they don't know how to write nuanced good guys anymore.

And now a digression. The reason they don't know how to write good guys is because this is the Bob Guza trickle-down effect, where the whole of the Fronsian ABC was taught to emulate Guza's desperate emulation of primetime/cable, even though he is either too lazy or not cut out for either medium. The day-to-day writing staff at GH is exemplary, the production values and acting are often excellent, but most of their stories and many moody, 'dark' characters don't hang together, and thus everything suffers from the outlines all the way down to the air shows. No one at GH has the courage of their convictions or the skill to fully execute a fleshed-out, realized character or storyline in the manner of primetime or cable, and so they tinker around the edges, offering the appearance of primetime glamour, production, characters and epic crime stories, while really the meat and potatoes, the content of this architecture is third-rate.

This is never more evident than in the handling of "gray" characters like Sonny, Jason, etc. - I have no problem with morally gray characters, like what Todd, or even Sonny and Jason used to be, but that is not who they are now. On GH everyone who is not a certain handful of faves is rendered impotent or dead, and the gray characters are glorified while growing more and more contorted and exaggerated in their 'cool behavior,' and thus more and more flat and two-dimensional. Shock, sound, fury and machismo become surrogates for behavior and dimension, and this has trickled down to the leads on OLTL and AMC. On GH, both Kevin and Joey would be either dead by now, or in prison for a sex crime. Kevin might have an easier time as he tends towards gray, but Joey would definitely be in a luggage bag. And that's because this trickle-down effect has left ABC unable to write for three-dimensional men, much less soulful, artistic men who are consistently on the right side of the law.

Today it takes absolutely no courage or risk to write a gray antihero on daytime. It takes much more balls to write a good man with complexity.

[Soapsuds]

OLTL writers sure know how to write in scenes with shirtless guys left and right. LIke I said Tom D has been shirtless for most of his run. I think he was shirtless only once on ATWT and if you blinked you missed it on ATWT.

[OLTL_fan]

Josh Kelly will probably have his shirt off by Monday.

[DRW50]

What story plans did they have for Kevin or would they have if he were around? I didn't watch very often when Higley was around, I just remember reading that Kevin was sterilized and went around apologizing all the time.

[Soapsuds]

I really didnt get a good look at Tom D chest on ATWT...lol...so I was nicely surprised on OLTL to see it very often....lol....It helps that Ron C and Valentini are running the show....add to the fact Fron's wife probably requesting it too.

I wanted to see Josh Kelly again on SoapNet but forgot to watch....I guess I'll tune in on Monday for his shirtless scene....gotta love Ron and Frank.

[Vee]

The rumor that I think floated around for awhile was that the original plan for Kelly's return this year was a tangled foursome with Blair and Kevin and Kelly and Joey. Which I would have enjoyed a lot. DG and KDP had great chemistry, and Kevin and Kelly has worked since they got rid of Tim Gibbs and JFP. But this was put off and instead we got, well, you know.

Today is probably the only one of KDP's original songs I have really liked. She has a lovely voice but I am not really into country or lots of singing on soaps. This was different and was really a nice number.

[DRW50]

Thanks, Vee. That would have been interesting. I always wanted to see more of Kevin/Blair.

I watched some of today's show and was surprised to see Michael Easton sort of emoting and smiling and his eyes were actually lighting up a few times. It's a very rare occurrence. It's a shame that this will all blow up soon enough and he'll be back to sullen mode.

Natalie looked gorgeous. Even with that weird dress.

Rex still making those awful monkey faces.

Soapsuds, here's Cutter, towards the middle of this clip. He reminds me of someone but I'm not sure who. Tim Adams or someone else. I hope they drop the facial hair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RU8CkkRB0TY