Jump to content

As The World Turns Discussion Thread


edgeofnik

Recommended Posts

  • Members

 

My guess would be just resistance to change. I'm not sure Barbara was as beloved as Betsy, but viewers had watched her be a tortured heroine for years. She and Gunnar were very popular. I don't want to say ATWT viewers were stodgy, but I think once characters were "slotted", they expected them to progress in certain ways. A shady character could stay shady (ala John), but "good" characters were fundamentally good, and the goal a "bad" character should have is to be "better".  Barbara snapping and becoming a bitchy "slut" (c'mon, Tonio?) was a dramatic shift.  This is the same show that just a few years later tried the same shift with Heather Rattray's Lily, which didn't stick.

It's hard to say, as I didn't have a lot of outside perspective at the time. I kinda remember the James/Barbara/Gunnar triangle, but it's hard to remember Barbara's personality. 

Did people really think of Barbara and Margo as "friends"? After Margo had slept with James? Oy vey.

And I hate to admit it, but in those scenes, Barbara makes Carly look like an amateur. Babs is stone COLD in dealing with Margo and Shannon. And *snort* at her dismissing Tonio. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 17.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • DRW50

    2970

  • DramatistDreamer

    1958

  • Soapsuds

    1716

  • P.J.

    823

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

  • Members

 

Regarding Margo/Babs being friends, what was more of my assessment given episodes I've seen prior to big lie. They did seem friendly with one another post James. 

 

And now that you bring up HR's Lily, Marland did try it again, and I found it refreshing again from what I've seen of HR's Lily. I've always grew tired of watching Lily pine after Holden. From what I've seen, I liked that at one point, HR's Lily was cold and taking no prisoners. It made sense for her (too) to make the shift. I do think that we (soap fans) have the tendency to hold characters in a box while fail to realize that these shows and its characters are supposed to be wrapped up in reality. We all aren't on our best behavior, so why expect the same of a character? But again, the shift has to make sense, which is what I felt (from what I've seen) with Barbara. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Kind of weird for soap fans capable of posting on an online forum be so rigid about a character. I think that vixen aspect of Barbara’s history holds up incredibly well, even all these decades later. She could be venomous but she wasn’t completely evil, to me she was pretty complex. There was the side of her that reveled in being aggressive in business, in satisfying her needs, but she also loved her son Paul and could be insecure  in her role as mother and protector, and like someone upthread mentioned, she cared deeply what Kim, Lisa and Bob thought of her. I loved those scenes after James returns to Oakdale and Barbara confronts him when she encounters him at Fashions. She tells him with a smirk that she’s no longer the doormat that she was when she was his wife, that she’s an even match for him now. James is mesmerized by the thought and tells her that he thinks she’s more beautiful now than ever. That sequence is an example of why I gravitated towards the soaps as a kid.

Today’s daytime soap writers claim that viewers don’t have the patience to watch a story build the way it used to when daytime soaps were at their zeniths. Viewers say the writers don’t have the skill set. Either way, I don’t see that type of storytelling happening again in daytime soaps. So many things have changed, most notably creative standards and the fundamental business model. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I don't think Barbara's initial metamorphosis under Sheffer was so bad given the past (she is great as a vixen in Marland's run - viewers were crazy). CZ played it all to the hilt every time. I do think by the time she was leaping out of windows it had gotten ridiculous, and it's good they ultimately rolled her back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I loved Barbara once she transformed into the manipulative vixen in the mid-80s.  No longer a doormat, she became very 3-dimensional, capable of being both a vindictive bitch AND a kind. loyal friend.  I remember when Hank Elliot came out to her in 1988, her response was very matter-of-fact and loving. She told him that she had already guessed it and, being in the fashion industry, was very aware of -- and comfortable working with -- gay men.  She and Hank always had a very loving friendship.  She was also an early and strong supporter of Duncan and Jessica's relationship.  If you were ever going to war, you wanted Barbara Ryan on the front lines with you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I think her hopping out the window is where it went overboard. While CZ delivered and the scene is epic, it was too over the top. The vendetta she had against Rose, Emily, and Carly made perfect sense. I always felt that Babs saw three versions of herself in them. I think the plus side to it all was that it revitalized the importance of Barbara on the canvas. I just wish that Hogan would've been smart enough to utilize Kim and Lisa during that time as they were her two moral compasses. There should've been tons of material of them talking Barbara off the cliff. 

 

I've said too that ATWT missed out on the Lisa/Carly/Babs dynamic the last decade. They should've tossed the three into each other's orbit and had them form a fashion house, which consisted of a lot of comedic backstabbing and undermining one another while forming a sisterhood. I've always hated that Carly and Lisa's friendship was never repaired. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Oh I know the story and evolution of Barbara's character, and I'm sure it had more impact watching the show as a whole back then. But I just saw very little bitchiness from her in those clips. No real catty remarks, no innuendos, nothing like that. Even a goody two-shoes like Taylor on B&B was bitchier than that, even at the height of her saintly phase.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The problem I have with these type of character videos is they neglect the impact from the actual storyline. You can’t get a true of Barbara in action with just a couple of scenes or one-liners. It has to be done through revelation of an actual story, so you can see how calculating Barbara was back then and how she did things, step by step to vex her rivals and those that she targeted. 
It would also be a mistake to look at the character through the lens of today’s daytime soaps, most of which don’t take the time to build characters and stories.

Many of Barbara’s most savage moments are contained in episodes that aren’t even posted on YouTube.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I understand. I find myself trying to put myself in the position of others who weren’t watching the show at that time, who might not know or struggle to imagine what it felt like to have to wait months for Barbara to get her comeuppance for her latest scheme or to even wait from Friday afternoon until Monday, anticipating what we’ll see when an emboldened, assertive Barbara finally encounters the ex-husband who used to torture her. Back then writers seemed more adept at piecing together a character’s history and backstory and merging it with the evolved character in a way that made sense. Today, they’re more likely to scrap the character and make build a new one entirely, even if it confuses the viewer.

Ooh, wow, thanks @lilyredd.

I would love if they would bring back Peter Boynton and a few others to join.

I hope Locher adds some clips. I know many of the clips aren’t in great condition but he’s done it with GL and it really added to the discussion.

Larry Bryggman needs to be there too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members


I liked the lead up to Babs going nuts..the explosion, her scars, feeling stupid that she let a man use her again like James did, and her isolation from her family and friends...with James pulling the strings when she moved into Fairwinds and manipulating her. But, she should have snapped out of it and eventually saved the women and they should have had her shoot James in his final moments he would laugh and say, "Now you are truly like me...I win!" and kill him once and for all (I can out sick Shefffer, I would have her bury him in her backyard put a patio down and then have a scene  LIsa, " Oh that horrible James I hope he never comes back."  Babs..smirking "Oh, maybe he finallyy went to hell and stayed there." That could have made her darker but not silly, OTT crazy selfish stupid that Sheffer made her.  Agreed that the disconnect was Kim, Bob and Lisa not even trying to get through to her and loosing that connection.

Agreed also on Lisa and Carly...Lisa always took in the strays and bad girls and she was supportive of other women (going back to her managing the bookstore and original Fashions days) Having Carly, Babs and Lisa giving each other [!@#$%^&*] but circling wagons when one was threatened was way past what Sheffer or Gautman could think of women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   1 member




  • Recent Posts

    • Sorry, just one more post on the Thorntons. How did Ruth and Edna feel about each other prior to Tad dating Dotty?
    • I can't remember exactly but I think it may be 1995 as Jake was trying to hide from a loan shark.
    • I also wonder if it was considered controversial at the time to show a morally corrupt doctor?(another character troupe for Agnes Nixon, the upstanding male citizen who is hiding secrets back at home) Up until the early 1970s, prime-time would very rarely tell stories about the private lives of doctors, because advertisers tended to shy away from such content. @robbwolff -- so is this wrong that Ruth dated David before marrying Joe?  Dr. David Thornton is a fictional character from the ABC daytime soap opera All My Children, portrayed by Paul Gleason from 1976 to 1978.  He was introduced as a respected physician in Pine Valley, presenting himself as a widower to his colleagues at the hospital. This facade, however, concealed a darker truth: his wife, Edna Thornton, was alive, and he was leading a double life. David’s character is defined by manipulation and secrecy, as he maintained a carefully curated public image while engaging in deceitful and criminal behavior in his personal life. His relationships were marked by control and betrayal, particularly in his marriage to Edna and his romantic entanglements with other women. David’s charm and professional status allowed him to navigate Pine Valley’s social circles, but his actions revealed a calculating and ruthless nature. Career David was a doctor at Pine Valley Hospital, where he was well-regarded by his peers for his medical expertise. His professional life provided him with a veneer of respectability, which he exploited to mask his personal misdeeds. However, his career was not a central focus of his storyline; instead, it served as a backdrop to his personal schemes. His position at the hospital gave him access to resources, such as the drug digitalis, which he later used in his attempt to murder his wife. David’s professional life unraveled as his criminal actions came to light, tarnishing his reputation in the medical community. Personal Relationships and Family David’s family and romantic relationships were fraught with tension and deception, shaping much of his narrative arc: Edna Thornton (Wife): David was married to Edna Thornton, with whom he had a daughter, Dottie. To his colleagues, he claimed Edna was deceased, allowing him to pursue other relationships without suspicion. In reality, David was plotting to kill Edna, motivated by his desire to be free of her and possibly to gain financial or personal freedom. He began poisoning her with digitalis, a heart medication, which caused her to experience heart pains. Edna was unaware of David’s true intentions until after his death, when the truth about his poisoning scheme was revealed. Dottie Thornton (Daughter): David and Edna’s daughter, Dottie Thornton, was a significant character in All My Children. Portrayed by Dawn Marie Boyle (1977–1980) and later Tasia Valenza (1982–1986), Dottie was raised primarily by Edna. David’s neglectful and manipulative behavior extended to his daughter, as he showed little genuine care for her well-being. Dottie’s life was impacted by her father’s actions, particularly after his death, when Edna became a wealthy widow. Dottie later married Thaddeus “Tad” Martin in 1985, though their marriage ended in divorce in 1986, and she suffered the loss of an unborn child with Tad. Ruth Parker (Fiancée, 1976): David was engaged to Ruth Parker in 1976, furthering his pattern of deceit since he was still married to Edna. His engagement to Ruth, who was also involved with Jeff Martin, highlighted David’s willingness to manipulate romantic partners for his own gain. The engagement did not lead to marriage, as David’s true intentions and double life began to surface. Christina “Chris” Karras (Lover, 1978): In 1978, David began a romantic relationship with Dr. Christina “Chris” Karras, a fellow physician. This affair added another layer of complexity to his web of lies, as Chris was unaware of his marriage to Edna and his poisoning scheme. After David’s death, Chris was initially accused of his murder due to their relationship and her access to medical resources. However, Jeff Martin’s investigation cleared her name by proving David’s death was caused by his own actions. Parents: David’s parents are unnamed in the source material, and both are noted as deceased. No further details are provided about their influence on his life or their role in his backstory. Death David Thornton’s death in 1978 was a dramatic and fitting conclusion to his villainous arc, brought about by his own treachery. Intent on killing Edna to escape their marriage, David had been secretly administering digitalis to her, causing her heart issues. In a twist of fate, their daughter, Dottie, innocently switched Edna’s drink with David’s during one of his poisoning attempts. Unaware that the drink was laced with a lethal dose of digitalis, David consumed it and suffered a fatal heart attack. His death was initially investigated as a possible murder, with Chris Karras as the prime suspect due to her relationship with David and her medical knowledge. However, Dr. Jeff Martin conducted a toxicology screen on David’s body, which revealed that the digitalis poisoning was the cause of both Edna’s heart pains and David’s death. This evidence exonerated Chris and exposed David’s plan to kill his wife, cementing his legacy as a tragic and self-destructive figure. Impact and Legacy David Thornton’s storyline, though relatively short-lived (1976–1978), was impactful due to its intensity and the ripple effects on other characters. His death left Edna a wealthy widow, altering her and Dottie’s circumstances and setting the stage for further drama, including Edna’s manipulation by conman Ray Gardner. David’s actions also strained relationships among other Pine Valley residents, particularly through his engagement to Ruth Parker and affair with Chris Karras, which intersected with Jeff Martin’s storyline. His character exemplified the classic soap opera archetype of a charming yet duplicitous villain whose downfall is precipitated by his own hubris. Additional Notes Portrayal: Paul Gleason’s performance as David Thornton brought a compelling intensity to the role, making the character memorable despite his brief tenure. Gleason’s ability to portray both charm and menace suited David’s dual nature as a respected doctor and a scheming husband. Storyline Context: David’s arc occurred during the early years of All My Children, a period when the show focused on intricate personal dramas and moral dilemmas. His poisoning plot and double life were emblematic of the show’s penchant for high-stakes interpersonal conflict. Lack of Additional Family Details: Beyond Edna and Dottie, no other family members (such as siblings or extended relatives) are mentioned in the source material, limiting the scope of his familial connections. Conclusion Dr. David Thornton was a multifaceted antagonist in All My Children, whose life was marked by professional success, personal deception, and a fatal miscalculation. As a doctor, he wielded authority and respect, but his secret plan to murder his wife, Edna, revealed a cold and calculating core. His relationships with Edna, Dottie, Ruth Parker, and Chris Karras were defined by manipulation, and his death by accidental self-poisoning was a poetic end to his schemes. David’s legacy in Pine Valley lived on through Edna’s newfound wealth and Dottie’s subsequent storylines, making him a pivotal figure in the show’s early narrative. His story remains a classic example of soap opera drama, blending betrayal, tragedy, and retribution.
    • The only blonde I see is one of the actual women staring at first & then screaming & running later.  DAYS: Vivian's manservant Ivan is in a long curly red wig. 

      Please register in order to view this content

      Y&R: long straight black wig is the actor Peter Barton whose character name I am blanking on.   
    • I very much liked office Cleary and the actress who portrayed her (as you say, Mary Peterson).  A shame her turn didn't evolve into a contract role.   BTW, does anyone know the timeframe/years that Betty Rae served as casting director?  If i understand correctly, she not only led the effort for contract roles, but also for shorter 13- and 26-week roles.  IMO, GL had LOTS of very well-casted, limited roles, too. I'm surprised the actors throughout the soap industry, and especially P&G actors, have not assembled a book or something similar, praising Rae.  Each actor could write a few paragraphs or a page of text describing his or her experience.
    • No. Ruth had an extramarital affair with David while married to Joe.
    • I'm not sure I agree with Bernstein's children on that. Bernstein's life and activism here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Bernstein#Social_activism_and_humanitarian_efforts
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy