I wasn't all that crazy about the 99-00 stint either. I hated what was done to Janet and to the Dillon family -- even if budget cuts meant they had to leave, I don't believe that you had to end them that way, with a frigging giant candy cane and all that. I hated the story where the Martin men hounded Dixie into a miscarriage. That whole timeline, between this and the story about the evils of Adam, was where the real ruination of Tad as a character began, IMO. Greenlee I never really liked very much because the whole poor little rich girl lashes out stuff is so tired and she was so cold. Scott was boring and wooden. Becca was just impossible to believe. I also thought that Erica's whole "my face, where is my mask!" story was a bit silly, although I understood the point behind that and I did like her with David. I was also disappointed at how little they did with Adrian.

There were some good points (it was nice to see Marian have a storyline, and Vanessa/Palmer were great -- Vanessa was a real force of hate at this time and was fascinating) and I realize that this was a time when the entire ABC lineup was being meddled with and dumbed down, but I can't say I was a big fan of this period.

Word. Short of a(nother) natural disaster - a flood, or perhaps another tornado - that devastates Pine Valley's citizens economically as well as emotionally, there really is no way to bring it back to being an innocent, small town.

Is that you Chris Whitesell?

Edited August 19, 201015 yr by CarlD2

I liked that she was friends with Bianca and had an issue with her being a lesbian when it came out.

The last thing I wanted to see was someone from WEST VIRGINIA having something to say about someone's sexual orientation. Out of spite, I would've been more than happy to talk about how it's all relative down there. Nevertheless, I'm glad that didn't go any further than, essentially:

Bianca: "Hi, Becca. I'm gay!"

Becca: "Ew!"

...and pretty much Becca was never seen again.

"Becca Tyree...in 3-D!!!!!"

That hair in 3-D would've been tragic!

The last thing I wanted to see was someone from WEST VIRGINIA having something to say about someone's sexual orientation. Out of spite, I would've been more than happy to talk about how it's all relative down there. Nevertheless, I'm glad that didn't go any further than, essentially:

Bianca: "Hi, Becca. I'm gay!"

Becca: "Ew!"

Ah, but in the old days of AMC.. didn't they have characters that represented both sides of an issue? I think they attempted to do that in regards to Bianca's sexual orientation, but didn't put much thought into it. Perhaps, if it were a character that wasn't from West Virginia/southern but someone who had lived in Pine Valley for a long time.

But, back to Agnes Nixon (sorry for putting up a detour sign), I have to say that, even though realizing how horrible Jean Passanante was alone after the fact, which could've contributed greatly to the opinion I'm about to express, I wasn't exactly in love with Agnes' 1999-2000 stint. I always felt that in an attempt to bring the show back to its roots, she somewhat caused the show to regress. Like, for instance, Junior running away from home because Adam wanted to send him to a top notch boarding school with the winningest soccer team in the country. Through the eyes of Junior, we were supposed to believe that Adam was as horrible a father to him as Ray Gardner was to Tad. Or that Gillian's desire to be a part of the Martin clan was so strong that she denied her feelings for Ryan. Gillian? Gillian Andrassy? The world traveled party girl, heiress, royalty... wanted to be a quaint Martin housewife, learning Ruth's meatloaf recipes? And don't get me started on that gosh dern Becca Tyyyyyyree. That cute lil' virgin with a whole lotta moxy!

Tina Harding, anyone?

I don't know, man. It was just a lot of trying cram the toothpaste back in the tube. For two decades, we've had Erica Turlington Kane taking on the Met, Hollywood, cosmetics companies... Chandlers and Cortlandts with their corporate conglomerates. Dimitri and the whole Count Andrassy story equipped with Wildwind and Budapest location shoots... and now, forget all that, we're back to homespun Martin family, Glam-o-rama, and country bumpkin virgins.

I loved a lot of her return, but you have some valid points. Becca was an attempt to make a new Tara (with Greenlee a new Erica type rival--except as a poor little rich girl)--but the time had really passed for that sort of heroine... (I used to blame the actress but I loved her on Mad Men--of course that was a decade later). I did love the return of Glamorama, Marian and Opal's friendship with Marian trying to get into the Pine Valley society, the return of Edna, etc--those smaller things.

The masked Erica stuff was an example of a not that great Nixon attempt at the gothic (for some reason it reminded me of her Loving story with Dante and him having Curtis in a cage as a his "pet" in tone--dunno why lol)

I know it's unfair to say this, and many will say Agnes shoulda forced it away, btu the whole candy cane/Janet storyline happened as soon as Jean Passanante replaced Elizabeth Page as Agnes' co HW in the credits (actually the show got a lot more outrageous in general when that happened--some would say before it was just kinda sleepy)

Edited August 19, 201015 yr by EricMontreal22

I did like the return of the class system, I thought that had potential. And seeing Enid again (or was she back?).

UGH I meant Enid, not Edna. Edna didn't return--I agree that the class stuff--society etc could be, somewhat, reinstated and would add an element to Pine Valley. For much of this decade everyone seemed to be automatically wealthy, and at least finally that's starting to *slowly* change.

It is important, and interesting, to de-mythologize these people like Agnes Nixon I think (I know Y&R fans often talk about bill Bell in the same way, and Lord knows he did some whacked out stories).

Ah, but in the old days of AMC.. didn't they have characters that represented both sides of an issue? I think they attempted to do that in regards to Bianca's sexual orientation, but didn't put much thought into it. Perhaps, if it were a character that wasn't from West Virginia/southern but someone who had lived in Pine Valley for a long time.

Well, I was half kidding about the whole West Virginia thing. But in all seriousness, I LOVE to debate and I LOVE to write, so I'm totally for having a for and against to any issue and providing conflict to tell drama. However... using Becca to do it? In my opinion, that would've just made the character an even bigger joke than she was already. She would've been a homophobic virgin country bumpkin.

Anyway, I have to say, having seen both the Kevin Sheffield coming out story and the Bianca Montgomery coming out story from beginning to end, Bianca's paled in comparison.

It is important, and interesting, to de-mythologize these people like Agnes Nixon I think (I know Y&R fans often talk about bill Bell in the same way, and Lord knows he did some whacked out stories).

I agree.

Kevin's was better handled in many ways (I liked even more the post story with his mom trying to get him to see that evil shrink, Opal sorta being for it while trying to support him etc), though Bianca's actual coming out *scenes* with her mom were pretty great. And of course it was a nice (and a first) that they could use a "major character" not some brand new character) to tell the story.

I did like the return of the class system, I thought that had potential. And seeing Enid again (or was she back?).

I agree that the class stuff--society etc could be, somewhat, reinstated and would add an element to Pine Valley. For much of this decade everyone seemed to be automatically wealthy, and at least finally that's starting to *slowly* change.

That was one of the things that really drew me into AMC in '01-02, the whole contrast between fancy schmancy settings like the Valley Inn, Erica's house, the Chandler mansion, and Wildwind, and little places of "lower" class like the Pine Cone, the clinic, the Pit, etc. The characters sort of reflected that, too. It wasn't as evident as it could have been, but there was a definite line between characters like Erica/Bianca and Simone, newly-returned Kendall, early Mia, Aidan, etc. All of them were pretty much living large and running businesses by the time they were written out.

It is important, and interesting, to de-mythologize these people like Agnes Nixon I think (I know Y&R fans often talk about bill Bell in the same way, and Lord knows he did some whacked out stories).

A HUNDRED TIMES AGREE.

I wish reruns were more accessible so that people could see for themselves and decide for themselves whether or not they liked Agnes's AMC or Bill's Y&R or Marland's ATWT or whatever.

Edited August 20, 201015 yr by All My Shadows

Kevin's was better handled in many ways (I liked even more the post story with his mom trying to get him to see that evil shrink, Opal sorta being for it while trying to support him etc), though Bianca's actual coming out *scenes* with her mom were pretty great. And of course it was a nice (and a first) that they could use a "major character" not some brand new character) to tell the story.

Kevin's coming out story was heads above the Bianca coming out story. You had Opal being supportive but trying to encourage him to seek out Kelsey, you had Kelsey in love with Kevin and he trying to deny he was gay by trying to sleep with her, and you also mixed that in with the teacher Michael coming out of the closet and his job being in jeopardy. Finally, you had Enid back during that time being judgemental and Palmer actually chastising his wife for trying to push Kevin/Kelsey together when he was gay.

I agree that the coming out scenes between Bianca/Erica were wonderful. I still remember one scene where Opal/Vanessa were talking about it and Vanessa was saying that it wasn't a big deal who was gay or not gay. I think Vanessa bought up something about a hollywood actress being gay and Opal gasping at that.. then Vanessa walks away saying something like "I rest my case".

Part of the problem of course is fans are always going on about "the good old days". While I loved most of Broderick's tenure at AMC in the mid 90s, I remember that's when I started posting online, and the majority of the posts I read were almost as negative as any posts I read now, LOL. Of course part of *that* is people online like to complain more than praise, and I stand by thinking that era was better than much since it, and from all I've seen (either "live" or on tapes) most of the time Agnes was most involved in AMC was the best, or what I liked the best. But it's easy to forget how many bum stories there were back then too--by its very nature (having to grind out so many episodes a year) no writer could really manage a flawless run (and even if they were miraculously so talented, so many other factors, like EP, cast, etc play a major part).

That was one of the things that really drew me into AMC in '01-02, the whole contrast between fancy schmancy settings like the Valley Inn, Erica's house, the Chandler mansion, and Wildwind, and little places of "lower" class like the Pine Cone, the clinic, the Pit, etc. The characters sort of reflected that, too. It wasn't as evident as it could have been, but there was a definite line between characters like Erica/Bianca and Simone, newly-returned Kendall, early Mia, Aidan, etc. All of them were pretty much living large and running businesses by the time they were written out.

I liked that too. Then you had characters like Trey who resented Erica for what she had, because he'd always felt worthless.

Ryan also suited the have not atmosphere much more than the bewildering decision to make him a millionaire (through zero effort of his own) as soon as he returned to PV.

As for Kevin's story compared to Bianca's, the reparative therapy story was just great. Beyond that I think part of it was Kevin was more of a supporting character, with less expectation. Bianca had more airtime and more expectations, yet she spent months doing things like sitting with Gabriel, as viewers tried to figure out whether the show was going to try to turn her straight.

But it's easy to forget how many bum stories there were back then too--by its very nature (having to grind out so many episodes a year) no writer could really manage a flawless run (and even if they were miraculously so talented, so many other factors, like EP, cast, etc play a major part).

In some ways, the stories at the time, a few of them anyway, offended me so much at that specific time, that the memory has stayed (the same is true for a lot of what was going on at OLTL at that time). If I watch them again I wonder if I might have more of a positive opinion.

Edited August 20, 201015 yr by CarlD2

That hair in 3-D would've been tragic!

HAHA

There was a journey with Kevin's story that I never sensed with Bianca's. She went on one date with Marcus, got drunk, and then confided in Leo about her experience with Sarah in rehab. The coming out scenes between Bianca and Erica, while somewhat moving (I didn't particularly care for the dialogue or the setup -- sorry), do not a story make as far as I was concerned then and now. The "story" after Bianca initially came out to Leo was all about the build up to How Will Erica React?!? Everyone else pretty much knew, so there was no real conflict for Bianca to have up until then. Then, from that point on, it was all about Bianca's longing for women that were cockteases. Chaste, lovable, Binks going after Sarah, Laura, Frankie, Maggie... With Erica hating every last young woman that Bianca even looked at. Lather, rinse, repeat from 2000-2003.

I remember Kevin's sense of struggle between coming out and getting his parents and brother's approval, who ultimately rejected him. I remember "Doc Chapman" and the conversion therapy. I remember the mother with hideous hair and clothes loving her son but still being reluctant to accept him back into the family as a homosexual. I remember Kevin and Kelsey and the pressure he felt (and I remember hating Kelsey for that). There were just certain beats that were in the Kevin story that were missed in the Bianca story.

To be fair Gabriel was ALL post Agnes Nixon (and not even during the Jean/Agnes years like Libidizone--which I don't think anyone thinks was Agnes' doing