Oh, thanks. I guess I saw Burns's name tagged as part of the Civil War stuff for so long.

but I know he quit GL because they wouldn't let Carrie go through a lengthy therapy process.

I thought he quit GL because TIIC fired Jane Elliot behind his back.

I thought he quit GL because TIIC fired Jane Elliot behind his back.

I think that was why they fired her. He wanted Carrie to go through a lengthy rehabilitation process as viewers learned the roots of her mental illness and so on. They were wary of going more into that or they blamed the story for a ratings loss or something, so they fired her.

I am sure it could have been interesting...but really, I don't want to participate watch anyone's therapy..even a soap characters. A big agree that it is stupid that they have someone be "crazy," and they disappear for a week for "intensive therapy," and are back and normal. I think showing a few sessions where the big break throughs happen would be fine, but Marland was a man of the 70's and thought "therapy," was an answer for anything, from being "frigid," to attempting to blow up a wedding!

I guess I was just burned by Iva Snyder's excruciating therapy sessions with the equally dour Lynn Michaels. I just wanted Michaels to say, "Iva you a bore, you are depressing and you need to find a personality....why would ANYONE want to be with you???"

Poor Iva. I think I had a blind spot with that character.

What did you think of Lucinda's therapy sessions and her childhood flashbacks? I remember Liz Hubbard said she wasn't thrilled with them, especially all the empty liquor bottles hanging around to try to show her mother's badness. I think she said she would have preferred Lucinda didn't have a miserable childhood.

I guess Marland's writing for therapy might have changed some as time went on, from being more about the followup to dramatic stories, like Kim after the Doug Cummings story, to being more about the everyday basis of a character. I think the latter can be more depressing for a viewer.

Ken Burns was a fan of the Marland era? That's neat.

Heather Rattray was the first Lily I ever saw so I might have felt differently otherwise but I always liked her Lily. I think that something about her, both the coldness and the fragile princess vibe, suited Lily very well, and some of her stories, like Lily's miscarriage, really got to me, whereas most of the time with Byrne in the role I just wanted someone to shake Lily (the only time I really enjoyed her Lily was her marriage to Damian -- and the period in 98-99 when FMB/Broderick tried to turn Lily into more of a mother figure).

I wish that there was more study of soap writers because while my eyes glaze over at some of the pseudo-intellectual studies that came out in the early 80s, I would love to see some detailed analyses on the differences between Marland and his shows. Like with GL and ATWT; to me his bad girls on ATWT were never as malicious as they could be on GL (Vanessa could be just nasty under Marland's pen, and Carrie was...in a league of her own), the Snyders seemed more heartfelt than the Reardons, and had deeper pain, and the fantasy sequences which Marland loved at GL seemed to dry up after what, a year at ATWT? I guess there were the somewhat cringeworthy nightmares/fantasies Duncan and Shannon had when Colin Crowley was around but I still don't know if that was writers strike stuff.

I also wonder if Marland made it a condition at ATWT that therapy and healing would be a major emphasis without network interference. Both GL and ATWT during his time had heavy focus on trying to understand damaged people and helping them get better or at least not demonizing them (as he took great pains to not demonize Douglas Cummings, or Andy Norris), but I know he quit GL because they wouldn't let Carrie go through a lengthy therapy process.

I floved Heather Rattray as Lily for the same reasons as you Carl.

Poor Iva. I think I had a blind spot with that character.

What did you think of Lucinda's therapy sessions and her childhood flashbacks? I remember Liz Hubbard said she wasn't thrilled with them, especially all the empty liquor bottles hanging around to try to show her mother's badness. I think she said she would have preferred Lucinda didn't have a miserable childhood.

I guess Marland's writing for therapy might have changed some as time went on, from being more about the followup to dramatic stories, like Kim after the Doug Cummings story, to being more about the everyday basis of a character. I think the latter can be more depressing for a viewer.

Was when LH played her mom in flashbacks? I dont't remember too much about that time as the show was kind of boring then. I do agree with Hubbard..but Marland thought every character who was BAD should have had a terrible childhood. I think we knew enough of Lucinda to simply come to the conclusion that she was a smart, vital, successful woman living in a man's world and acting accordingly. I also think she was a mother who understandably felt vunerable about her place in her adopted kid's life (especially since that child was a whiny bitch who would throw that damn farm up in Lucinda's face every chance she got!) Lucinda is a woman who would never have gone into therapy and disdained anyone who would dare think she should change.

I know Marland liked Lucinda but felt her treatment of her was sexist. She was a badass in business but I always got the impression that he thought her place should be at home, cooing over Lily. To top it off it didnt help that he had John Dixon of all people act like the moral superior to her antics. When did he make a sudden change to be a sarcastic Bob Hughes?

But then, I always felt that Lucinda was more vital, loving and more of a "mother, " then any of those drab Snyders. She was just a little meddlesome but isnt every mother? The one thing I do miss about Byrne is her reaction to Lucinda/LH, she kind of rolls her eyes and has a face but it is filled with affection, which is how a matured Lily would have reacted to Lucinda..kind of like she likes that her mom is an over the top force to be reckoned with.

Hubbard played Lucinda's mother. The flashbacks were black and white. I don't remember a lot about them. I think that some of the background made sense (and I think Royce and Neal could have been great characters if circumstances had been different) but I think that it might have been better if Lucinda had just left a happy but dull life to try to move up. One of the things I liked about Rae Woodward's background on RH was that she never really said she had an abusive or neglectful mother or upbringing. She was just bored and wanted to move up. I think it worked best with Lucinda when they kept playing on elements of her marriages, like Evan and Connor showing up to avenge James Walsh. By the way, I started a thread on this but no one seemed to know -- do you remember if Lucinda ever mentioned any husbands besides Esteban/Walsh/Guest before she got married to John? In an episode from before then, Lily said Lucinda had already been married 5 times.

There was an early 1985 episode with Lucinda where they had her dealing with Bob and John over her paper publishing a story about a new drug or something and she was very, very tightly wound. She was also dressed like a wannabe Alexis. They seemed to loosen her up as they focused more and more on Lily and on Sierra, and Hubbard seemed to do well with contrasting her neurotic home life to her cold business life, but I do think that Lucinda was kicked in the teeth a few too many times. In some ways they were lucky because Hubbard always had her as a fighter and you knew Lucinda would bounce back.

I never saw a John before Marland and I did like that John but I know some fans have said that the writing for John was probably their main complaint about Marland's era, and that they preferred a John who was darker or crazier. I think the John I enjoy most watching the old stuff is the 1984-early 1985 John, who is a loving father but is also very wild and not easy to read, and has a great sense of humor. I guess that didn't really start to change until the late 80s.

But then, I always felt that Lucinda was more vital, loving and more of a "mother, " then any of those drab Snyders. She was just a little meddlesome but isnt every mother?

Overall I think Lucinda was a good mother. She was just insecure and tried to control her children, but then, with a few exceptions, like supporting Tonio/Sierra (although she seemed to give that up soon enough), I think Lucinda was right. She just didn't go about it the best way. She was right to oppose Lily/Holden, unfortunately Lily would often make a lot of big mistakes in trying to retaliate.

I always liked the idea of Lucinda getting one more chance with Bianca. I know Bianca was not exactly the life of the party but I wish she hadn't been forgotten.

Edited July 6, 201015 yr by CarlD2

Bianca had to be one of the worst characters Douglas Marland came up with. She was dull and so damn boring...yes I said damn....lol What an awful character Bianca was. I cringe just thinking about it.

But then, I always felt that Lucinda was more vital, loving and more of a "mother, " then any of those drab Snyders. She was just a little meddlesome but isnt every mother? The one thing I do miss about Byrne is her reaction to Lucinda/LH, she kind of rolls her eyes and has a face but it is filled with affection, which is how a matured Lily would have reacted to Lucinda..kind of like she likes that her mom is an over the top force to be reckoned with.

Overall I think Lucinda was a good mother. She was just insecure and tried to control her children, but then, with a few exceptions, like supporting Tonio/Sierra (although she seemed to give that up soon enough), I think Lucinda was right. She just didn't go about it the best way. She was right to oppose Lily/Holden, unfortunately Lily would often make a lot of big mistakes in trying to retaliate.

This is exactly why I couldn't stand Emma and Iva lecturing Lucinda about how to be a good mother. I thought that Emma and Iva indulged Lily in her temper tantrums against Lucinda. Strangely, as much as Lucinda couldn't stand Josh, she tried to tolerate him and he made to the effort to talk to Lily about her overreaction to Lucinda. Lucinda made mistakes, but she was loving and strong. If Lily had been half the woman that Lucinda was, her life wouldn't always be such a mess.

Edited July 7, 201015 yr by Ann_SS

Was when LH played her mom in flashbacks? I dont't remember too much about that time as the show was kind of boring then.

I loved it then. Does anyone know if that episode in which Lucinda imagined everyone in Oakdale was saying every rotten thing they thought about her is on youtube, or how I'd find it?

Also, Mary Ellen Waters = Lucinda's real name?

I think it's Mary Ellen Walters...but yes, that's Lucinda's birth name.

I've always detested the Snyders and considered them a faux watered down Walton family. Firstly, I don't think a farm belongs on a soap seeing as the genre is generally about romantic fantacy and rags to riches. Also, I hate when rich people whine about having money and treat the rural life as some sort of retreat. Also, the Snyder tribe stole airtime from other, more interesting families. The only Snyder I've ever liked is Aaron.

This is exactly why I couldn't stand Emma and Iva lecturing Lucinda about how to be a good mother. I thought that Emma and Iva indulged Lily in her temper tantrums against Lucinda. Strangely, as much as Lucinda couldn't stand Josh, she tried to tolerate him and he made to the effort to talk to Lily about her overreaction to Lucinda. Lucinda made mistakes, but she was loving and strong. If Lily had been half the woman that Lucinda was, her life wouldn't always be such a mess.

Totally agree, and I think it would make sense that Iva and Emma would, at least subconciously try to turn Lily against Lucinda. However, I dont think Marland ment that,as no other character got to call those two on their [!@#$%^&*]...(someone besides Lucinda, it would have been great to have John do it.. but of course he was on Team Iva, the Bore..the woman had to really know how to give a good blow job as I can't see what any man would see in her!) I always thought a missed opportunity would be to have Nancy befriend Lucinda, so at least Lucinda had a unreproachable person on her side. I think that in many ways Nancy would have seen her younger self in Lucinda, as a loving, yet meddlesome mother, so I think she would have both given Lucinda some slack, corrected her when she was wrong, and stick up for her when those sanctimonious Snyders were going on and on...and how I would love some old school Nancy scolding of Lily for dissing her mom. Imagine Lisa being jealous as all hell that Nancy took her nemises under her wing.

Speaking of Lisa, I think that by giving Lucinda a "dull," childhood she wants to rise above would be too similar to lower middle class Lisa, who wanted money, respectablity, excitement, and a stable family. I think by just showing that Lucinda was dirt poor, but with a loving mom, would have been enough. Showing them getting evicted and having to struggle to eat and have her mom marry a man who she didnt love to put a roof over her head would be enough to show us why Lucinda was desperate to stay on top and not to have to rely on a man.

I do think that Marland romanticicized the working class, (and I am not talking his fetish for working class guys .) The Snyders, for all their talk of hard work, spent all their time in the kitchen, making out with Lily, and talking about their "feelings," instead of working. You never saw them have a bad crop and worry about the what they are pulling in, or about the weather, etc. They were all healthy and fed and had enough time to be neurotic. However, Marland seemed to think that people with ambition or money were wrong..or at least those that werent "born," with it but were working to get it or keep it..( a bit of a yankee snob there I say.) When Lily is talking about how terrible it is to have four christmas trees that someoen else decorates you feel like slapping the bitch and dropping her off in the projects to see how it is to be poor, not charming poor like the Snyders.

I think the change in John was needed, but it came too fast and at too much cost. All of a sudden he is hanging with the Hugheses? During the Kim and Bob/Susan thing they should have made it that John, kinda, sorta wanted to make trouble for Bob and Kim. I think it was another example of Marland "pussifying," his men and making them as bland as can be.

Lucinda's five husbands, I think they dropped that or it just got forgotten.

I've always detested the Snyders and considered them a faux watered down Walton family. Firstly, I don't think a farm belongs on a soap seeing as the genre is generally about romantic fantacy and rags to riches. Also, I hate when rich people whine about having money and treat the rural life as some sort of retreat. Also, the Snyder tribe stole airtime from other, more interesting families. The only Snyder I've ever liked is Aaron.

A total agree on all of the above!