ATWT: Your view on the Snyder family

[P.J.]

I can't really blame Marland for the Stewart's family problems. Paul and Dan had been killed off the decade before. There were no males to carry on the family name. Annie and Dee were phased out as well (to my recollection) before Marland. Henderson Forsythe (David) wanted to do other things and was only sporadically on after the early-'80's. Marland kept Betsy as a presence for quite awhile and actually brought back Susan and Emily. I don't really know what else he could have done. It's not really like he had a string of male Stewarts he was keeping off the show. Other than creating a long-lost son or alternate family branch, he was stuck.

[DRW50]

I think that Dee could have returned, and I wish Betsy had returned (although I wonder if fans accepted anyone other than Meg Ryan -- I think Lindsay Frost was very good but then I am writing this 20 years after the fact), but otherwise I agree that there wasn't a lot Marland could have done, unless he had aged Dani and brought her in as a teenager.

I blame those after Marland's passing, the ones who got rid of Ellen (Susan and Emily have not been quite the same without her -- KMH's Emily has had, aside from her few years with Hal, so many scuzzy, desperate stories, and Ellen could have been some sort of balance for her), the ones who didn't work to keep Dani around, who never brought back Annie's quads. It is disgusting to think that Dani's last appearance on the show was having an affair with Craig and calling him "Daddy."

[Quent]

I don't think viewers would've accepted anyone other than Meg Ryan in the role. Not that she was the greatest actress, but she was uniquely "quirky", and she and Frank Runyeon had chemistry. Lindsay Frost was a wonderful actress, but she had no chemistry with Runyeon at all. Similar to Noelle Beck being a good actress, but having zero sparks with Jon Hensley.

[DRW50]

I don't see a lot of chemistry either, but I also wonder if the role just wasn't suited to changing times. I notice in the late 1984 episodes I watch that Betsy is basically Steve's supportive helpmate -- everything in her life is about him. When Betsy got a job of her own, became close friends with Craig (which I thought was touching and showed what a generous and forgiving person she was, but fans at the time might have felt differently), did fans accept that? Could they see a Betsy beyond the ingenue Meg Ryan played?

[saynotoursoap]

Carl, thank you for a wonderful post. You articulated your thoughts regarding the Snyder family

splendidly, and I agree with most of your comments. You were spot on with your suggestion that the crux of the Snyder family narrative originated in the dynamic of relationships between family members, particularly between the children and Emma.

I will apologize for a few things right off the bat. First, my post will be long. Secondly, I am going to tick off some people with my comments -one of the perks of being an old man is that I don’t care what others think of me- but I have strong opinions, too -however unpopular they may be. Finally, I am going to refer to a number of different comments made by others, without quoting the original material. I am lazy. Sue me.

I like the Snyder family. I do not think they displaced other families, as suggested by others. Doug Marland wrote an amazingly balanced soap. The Snyder family may have been prominent in every episode of the 80's and early 90's, but the Hughes, Munson, Stewart, McKechnie, Walsh, and Stenbeck families were right there beside them everyday. Sometimes Marland had 20 characters in one episode. It wasn’t unusual to have cast credits with over 60 actors. To suggest the Snyders stole from other families during the Marland years is ludicrous.

One poster commented that farms are bad settings for soaps, which should be about fantasy, and compared the Snyders to the Waltons. The Snyders WERE like the Waltons, as well as the Frames of Another World. Marland and Harding Lemay were both raised on farms. They wrote what they knew, and part of their success was their obvious passion for expressing their own experiences through those fictional characters. Two specific comments on this subject. Yes, some soaps are about fantasy -BUT, does that mean that every single soap opera on the air has to be fantasy driven? I think not. The Snyders appeared in 1985, right in the middle of a decade of excess, with wealth, success, and outrageous fantasy dominating the media. Marland went in the opposite direction with the Snyders, which made them different from any other soap family at that time. I think it was a good thing. If you guys want fantasy, you have always had six to ten other soaps to chose from with that theme.

Secondly, I don’t know how long the fantasy guys have watched ATWT -I started watching 45 years ago as a small boy, and I can tell you that ATWT was NEVER supposed to be about fantasy. World Turns has always been about home and hearth, family, and community. In many ways it has been the most realistic and homey of American soaps. A decade ago, the grievous decision was made to turn the World into an unbelievable cross between Edge of Night and Days of our Lives. Out went the families. Out went the vets. Out went serious stories of average people in a close knit community. Instead we’ve gotten asinine stories of overexposed, overhyped supercouples (Carly & Jack, Paul & Meg) along with endless kidnappings, comas, car crashes, mad scientists, and psycho serial killers. IMHO, the shallow fantasy elements killed ATWT.

The characters. Many have a problem with Emma’s hypocrisy. Many have an aversion to hypocrisy in real life, but that’s the point -hypocrisy is realistic. If Emma was 100% sweet, kind, fair, perfect, and consistent all the time, she wouldn’t be real. Everybody has inconsistencies in real life. We may not like those things in others and ourselves, but they exist. Another serial character is actually worse than Emma -Maeve Ryan on Ryan’s Hope. She turns a blind eye to her lying, deceitful, adulterous sons, expects perfection from her daughters, and castigates others for immoral behavior, while defending that behavior in her own children. Why do we keep watching? Because Helen Gallagher is a superior actress. So is Kathleen Widdoes. Try to put characterization into perspective.

The Snyder kids. I have always loved Holden. I will admit my own prejudice based on the fact that Jon Hensley is physically my type. If I could have one night of shagging with any straight soap actor, he would probably be my first choice. I have had a crush on him since I first saw him 25 years ago. He has aged extraordinarily well, and although he isn’t in any danger of winning Emmys, he has turned in solid, dependable performances over the years and has shown growth as an actor. As for Holden, I like the fact that various writers, even lousy ones, have allowed the character to change. Holden was a bad boy at first, very manipulative and at times extremely cruel and unlikable. He grew into a loving husband. Lost his memory. Became cold and aloof. Went away. Came back more heroic, and developed a warm relationship with his sworn enemy, mother-in-law from hell Lucinda.

Iva was always a favorite of mine, too. Iva was somewhat of a goody two-shoes who made bad mistakes and often suffered for it. Somehow Lisa Brown managed to pull off a character that would have been whiny and bland in the hands of any other actress. Someone mentioned Lisa’s voice and mannerisms. I agree. I like unique voices and the way performers use their bodies. I enjoyed Renee Props as Ellie for this reason. I am always in the minority, if not the sole person who liked Renee/Ellie. I remember the scenes when Ellie aborted Kirk’s baby because of developmental problems. Ellie explained to Kirk why she did it. Any other actress would have cried or screamed, but Props lowered her voice and played those scenes rather softly, tenderly begging Kirk to understand. I thought she was good.

I disliked Meg initially because she seemed to be a duplicate of Nola Reardon from GL. I hate it when writers totally recycle material without really adding anything new. Meg changed for me when she fell in love with Rod Landry, and Tonio did everything to torture them and keep them apart. I only watch ATWT occasionally now as I can barely tolerate it. The actress playing Meg (Marie Wilson?) seems ok, but she is NOT Meg. The character is nothing like the Meg of Marland years, which is a shame, because Meg’s history meant that she could be reasonable or a total witch.

Michael David Morrison’s Caleb was probably the most interesting Snyder sibling. He was a hothead: impatient, rambunctious, horny, reckless, rebellious, and surly. He could also be amazingly tender at times. He was fascinating when he tried to control his anger, but could barely conceal it. He had so much potential, but Graham Winton didn’t capture an ounce of Morrison’s turmoil, and Caleb was emasculated from that point on.

My least favorite Snyder was Seth. I liked Steve Bassett just fine, and Seth was supposedly Marland’s fictional counterpart, but I found the character boring. I don’t know if it was the actor’s portrayal or Marland’s writing, but Seth’s inner sensitivity was never compelling to me. Maybe if Seth had been the 1988 gay character instead of Hank Eliot, he would have worked better for me. I didn’t dislike Seth; I just found him neither fish nor fowl.

Some soap forums have debated the Snyders versus the Reardons of GL. I personally liked the Snyders much better. With the exception of Maureen and Nola, I never found the other Reardon siblings interesting, and Bea especially lacked real warmth. As for Marland, I don’t think he was a perfect writer. His dialogue was particularly appalling. It sounded like the kind of banal, expository language used by Irna Phillips (and Bill Bell at times). A typical episode might go something like this:

Emma: Iva, my darling daughter, what are you doing home so early? I thought you were having dinner at the Mona Lisa to discuss the custody case with John.

Iva: Well, Momma...I was. But then Lucinda showed up looking for Kirk to discuss a business deal between Worldwide and M&A, and you know John and Lucinda haven’t been getting along lately because of Lucinda’s role in the dissolution of Lily and Holden’s marriage. John never could tolerate Lucinda’s meddling when they were married, so naturally, he got angry and left.

Emma: Lucinda was looking in the wrong place for Kirk. He stopped by earlier this evening to have a look around the orchard. Our crop of Braeburn apples has just come in. They’re so sweet and juicy, just heaven, you should taste them. In fact, Kirk thought we might sell some for Aunt Mary’s new line of homemade apple pies that M&A will soon launch.

Iva: Oh, yes. I think Cal mentioned that. John and I saw him at the Mona Lisa having dinner with Connor Walsh.

Emma: Connor...? What in the world would he be doing with Connor when he’s engaged to marry Lyla? Don’t tell me there are problems in that relationship already. I was afraid that might happen when I found out that Lyla had accepted those singing engagements out of town. As Amber D’Amour I might believe the saying that absence makes the heart grow fonder, but as Emma Snyder I know that two people who love each shouldn’t be apart for too long. Kirk and Ellie are proof of that. You know, Kirk’s been out in the orchard with Caleb for the last hour at least. I don’t know what could be keeping those two.

Iva: Oh, Momma. I sure hope Caleb isn’t still upset about Ellie. The last thing Kirk needs to hear right now is a lecture of how badly he’s treated Ellie. Ellie isn’t blameless in all this, you know.. She aborted Kirk’s child without telling him and then she ran off to work at Meridian. How are they supposed to work out their problems with Ellie in New York and Kirk in Oakdale.

So, no Marland wasn’t perfect. What he did well was balancing vets with new characters, respecting the audience while attracting new viewers, and creating a real place for real characters and real situations. I loved the jokes about Julie only being able to cook fried chicken or the refrigerator needing replacing, or the water heater breaking down. These weren’t plot points, but little bits of recurring information that made the situations realistic. Margo was also a bad cook, and many times she ordered in Chinese or a romantic dinner from The Pampered Palette, just like we all do in real life when we’re tired and don’t want to bother with cooking. Digressing, but I loved the set up of Margo getting raped when stopped by the liquor store for a bottle of wine. She wasn’t raped by some psycho character on the canvas, or because she was out tramping around town. It was a random act of violence in an ordinary situation many can relate to.

Final note. Back to fantasy. I think the Snyders and Hughes do represent a type of fantasy. Think about the audience of soaps back in the day. The viewers were largely housewives, whose lives revolved around family, and seniors -the sick and shut-ins, people who may not have any human contact all day. As human beings, we have an innate desire to belong to something greater than us. The Snyder farm was a place where you always had another person with whom you could have a laugh, share a secret, or tearfully expiate emotions. And no matter what heinous act you committed, you knew that Emma Snyder would always be there to love and accept you, even if you received a stern lecture in the process. The Snyders were about belonging and acceptance. Some viewers will get that, and others who don’t need it or reject it... won’t.

[DRW50]

I agree with you 100% here. I know they had stuff like Mr. Big and all the shifting to the Stenbecks, to Greece, and other exotic stories in the early 80s, but overall I think ATWT, even in some of their leaner periods, usually focused on family and heart until 2000 or 2001. That's when the show became the product of writers and producers who seemed to have open contempt for the idea of family, and who were hyping themselves, not their show. It was seen as countercultural and hip and fun for the show to suddenly paint the Hughes as cold and unpleasant people, to destroy most of the idea of friendship or family or support that Oakdale was once known for, to tear all that down in order to endlessly hype lunatics and sociopaths who were seen as cool because of what animal they killed or what sneery one-liner flew out of their mouth. The virtues of ATWT became unworthy. Good became weak. Selfish and cruel became strong. It's a shame that they only seem to be getting back to a family element now that the show is almost done.

It's that contempt for basic soap elements, and for daytime itself, which has killed the genre.

That's true about Lisa. On paper Iva is a drag and I can totally understand why fans thought she was annoying but Lisa tended to make me root for Iva and feel her pain.

I think a lot of people liked Ellie at the time, and some still do now, it's just difficult because she has not been mentioned or shown in so long and there isn't that much of her on Youtube, compared to most of the other Snyders.

That's a pretty funny recap of Marland's dialogue. I think you're right. I remember Lucinda as having many funny comments, but I guess some of that was ad-libbed by Liz Hubbard, wasn't it?

[DRW50]

I think sometimes people might have been more annoyed with Emma because I don't remember if any characters ever criticized her double standards (as characters sometimes did with Maeve on Ryan's Hope). I think it bothered me more when Emma was used to prop someone, as she was in the Carly/Rosanna feud, than it did when she was involved in Lily's stories, because she had more of a vested interest in Lily's life and also because Marland had previously let Emma be seen as not perfect (as she felt great shame over never knowing that Iva had been raped, or that Uncle Henry had beaten Josh).

[Ann_SS]

saynotoursoap, I love your analysis of the Snyders although I don't share all your opinions. Ellie and Meg were my favorite Snyders so I agree with you there. I also agree with you about Seth. I thought he was a useless bore. His worse moment for me came when Meg told him that the baby she lost was Josh's not Tonio and Seth judgmentally said that he had felt sorry for Meg, but perhaps he should have been sorry for Tonio all along. WTF?! Who says that? Blah.

I never had a problem with the farm. It was a place like Worldwide where drama happened so it worked, imo. I'll never forget Lily finding out that Josh was her father in the barn.

Marland captivated me with his storytelling and well drawn characters during his time at ATWT. I rushed home every afternoon from class to watch ATWT. All his characters were well drawn and their motivations were very clear even when I wanted to slap them. Something else, Marland had his share of younger characters who were played by decent actors. He wove the younger characters' stories together and made sure that the older characters were involved in some capacity. He was an amazing storyteller.

[DeeeDee]

Which made them no different than any other soap.

What's sad is how certain fans happily accept the horrible writing cause it suits the agendas of their sociopath characters.

[Mitch]

LOL...that was the funniest recap of Marland dialoque. Except you forgot to add someeone saying something about how they value "honesty above all else in a relationship." And someeone saying something about Connor, Lucinda, Evan, Holden whomever, "Changing so much because of their ambition." Or someone else saying something about Ellie, Tom, Margo, or whomever, "Having a great sense of humour," even though all of them were stiff dullards most of time! Or the kicker...no matter what happened it town, "Do you know what Lily feels about this, she is very vunerable right now!"

I do have to say, that you had to be on the ball with Marland, just following the recap would be considered, by today's execs, as too much for the viewers, who most of them they think, live on trailer parks, to follow. I also like how Marland would throw in lines about history, without explaining it too much...(i.e. Lisa and Ellen's on going dislike for each other) like real life.

I have to disagree on Iva, no matter if she was played by Pam Anderson she was boring, sexless, drab, humourless, and an all around drag. Too bad that Brown brought Iva back to Guiding Light and not Nola...she may have been able to stick around. Why you would break up the great team of John and Lucinda, bickering like a real couple and throwing barbs to all around them, to team John up with that sour lemon I never knew.

[DRW50]

I thought Tom and Margo had a decent sense of humor when they weren't in heavy dramatic stories. There were a lot of little everyday scenes where they would banter. I miss that for both of them -- it has really been miserable seeing Margo as the bitter or caustic supporting mother/sister/cop, while Tom seemed to spend years going around yelling at people.

I can't remember a lot of ha ha comic relief under Marland's tenure. He did have Shannon and her sidekick Harriet but otherwise most of it seemed increasingly down to one-liners put into serious storylines. I wonder how he would have reacted to a character like Henry Coleman...

[Mitch]

Marland didn't do humor so well. There were some really good one liners in there, so I am attributing that to the dialougue writers, but most of his people were super serious and a bit stiff most of the time, unlike GL at the time, who under Long and especially Curlee and the rest, has some characters who always brought the one liners on..Reva, Harley, even Ed ("Go back and change, you look like you would dance in a cage!") not to mention, India, Alex...("Kidnap Melinda Sue???Keeping her in peroxide alone would bankrupt me!") ATWT just had Lucinda...sometimes Lisa, and John before he became one of Marland's bores.

I know Tom and Margo were "supposed," to be funny, but I think that was a holdover from when Deas and Colin were playing them, and they actually were funny, with two actors who know how to do comedy. Dolan could kind of do it, but she was brought down by the Tom actor, who I think was the worst casting decision Marland made...Tom went from being the Hughes family "hippie," (Deas) to being a more conservative, but a lot more sexier guy with a sense of humor (Marx) to whatever his name is, who made Tom a boring stiff.

There were some "hijinks," scenes, first with Shannon and her "Ethel," (then Shannon bacame a sanctimonious bore) and with Lisa (investigating Lucinda, and hiding under her makeup vanity and trapped there) but not much, Which is weird, on GL he used to do some really good comedy with Nola.

[DRW50]

Scott Holmes plays Tom now.

This is one of those situations where I am biased because I didn't know of any Tom before Scott Holmes. I do see that Deas and Marx, although they were both tightly wound, seemed to have more humor in Tom. I think that Tom was a character who seemed to just have humor with Margo and that changed as Margo and Tom had more and more problems. It was odd seeing that clip from late 1984 with the Jason Kincaid Tom and Hillary's Margo, and he was the exasperated sitcom husband, down to dropping the turkey when she told him some surprising news.

I think GL had much more quirkiness and edge while ATWT was more earnest. GL veered from ha ha characters like Wanda to quirky, sparkplug women like Harley or Nadine, to bitter humor like Alex or Blake, to bantering, playwrights-dream-of-this lines delivered effortlessly by Zaslow, Maureen Garrett, Jerry ver Dorn. I think GL was sort of a grab bag while ATWT's nature somehow veered more towards seriousness. Either that or Marland himself changed. Watching his 1986 ATWT episodes on Youtube, there are more fantasy sequences (including one where Sierra imagines a spa where Lucinda is having relationships with Craig AND Tonio) and more wacky comic stuff with Harriet. A lot of that was gone by the time I started watching. I was surprised at just how much lighter some characters like Duncan were early on.

Oddly enough I often thought of Vanessa as being the most serious of serious women on GL, aside from a few laughs with Maureen. Yet Marland wrote some deranged humor for her as Vanessa -- like that scene where she is wearing huge sunglasses, banging on Eve Stapleton's door and screeching about Eve plays the victim and stole Ross from her because she won't let Vanessa have any happiness. And then all the brilliant dark bite from characters like Diane Ballard and Carrie -- the stuff Carrie did is just shocking...having her way with the teenage paperboy!

Marland at GL and at ATWT seem like very different writers sometimes. The change between the Reardons and the Snyders, for instance. I wonder if his stint with Agnes Nixon at Loving also changed him.

[Mitch]

Interesting analysis on Marland, re, the difference between GL and ATWT. Now that the shows are dead, I wish that some insider would write a book about the backstage happenings on the P & G soaps. I don't mean a fan fave thing, or even an actors tell all, but just about the creative minds involved and why and how some decisions were made (though I wouldnt mind them throwing in some backstage who was scewing who,")

Marland's run did start out more lighthearted, but then became more earnest and serious as time went by. I think as time went by he kind of homogenized his characters, with adventurous edgy characters like Shannon and Duncan settling down to standing around the Mona Lisa worrying about Lily..(Duncan situation was much like what Marland did to Ross and most of his male characters, they started out as single, free wheeling guys with a bit or larceny in their hearts, to being castrated when they fell in love.)

Of course, I might be a bit biased when it comes to Holmes as I thought that Marx made the perfect Tom (as a matter of fact, my young homo self always thought his Tom would be perfect husband material...funny, sexy, nice but with a bit of an edge there to make things interesting.) When they brought in Holmes I was like "THAT's TOM?????" Plus Holmes always talks nasily and no matter what line he has, it comes off as sour and self-righteous. Sigh....I think Marx and the second Margo, the one who is on OLTL could have made a worthy successors to Bob and Kim, but Holmes and Dolan just dont have any warmth.

[DRW50]

I've said the same thing about I wish there could be some sort of study of Marland's GL and his ATWT. Through Youtube and other sources you can see a lot more of his work than I'd ever have imagined and it's still so fascinating to watch all these years later. I get so greedy with the old soaps, I just want to see more and more of them, especially since the genre today is just about dead.

I guess your opinion of a character is heavily based on who you see in the role first. I know fans who still insist Justin Deas was the only Tom they ever liked.

Sometimes I wonder with the Snyders if Marland should have tried an interracial relationship, if that would have been interesting drama. Would there be any tension from other members of the family? I guess it might not have fit them but I would have liked to have seen Heather have her role tested a little more, Tonya Pinkins is such a good actress yet other than being sweet and supportive and having B-stories, she never had anything to do. It seemed like in late 1984 they were building up Heather, Tucker, and some woman who was Lucinda's right hand person and who had a flirtation with Craig, but then that all seemed to fade out.