HBO: Game of Thrones

[DRW50]

Agreed about young Cersei.

Well...that was the premiere.

I tend to prefer Walking Dead when characters are split up, because I feel like this gives more of a chance for character exploration and insight, and new relationships.

I tend to prefer GoT when characters are together, because when they are split, it's little but random people literally wandering around here, there and everywhere, looking miserable, having no purpose. I like Brienne well enough, but I had no real interest in seeing her pop up for a minute to look annoyed and depressed and tell Podrick to !@#$%^&*] off. We got that about 5 times last season. Now that Arya (mercifully MIA in this episode) is going to have a story beyond sour-faced strolling, I guess Brienne has taken her place? No thanks.

The lack of energy that really began creeping up last season was still present and accounted for, and for the first time I thought the show also looked cheap. I'm not sure if they made budget cuts to help pay for Dorne, or if it was the decision to blacken every redhead in the cast, but most of the locations looked drab and like they were standing in front of greenscreen. (the main exception was the gorgeous shot of the steps as Cersei was on her way to Tywin's funeral).

Anyway...

The good:

- Cersei. The flashback benefited from superb casting for young Cersei, and while I didn't think the future reading had the impact it could have had (I thought the woman playing Maggy was a little bland), it was still a good insight into the woman she is today. I also thought her scene with Lancel, as stupid as ever, but made quite a bit hotter by religious fundamentalism, was perfect. I still think the show has done a terrible job with her relationship with Jaime, but their scene was thankfully brief, and I can't say she was wrong in berating him.

- Jon and the Wall. I could have done without that weird "are you a virgin?" scene with Mel (although I would prefer to believe this is for some purpose beyond her wanting the dick), but otherwise the grim life and moral division between what is right and what must be worked. Ciaran Hinds and Kit Harington did some strong work in that last scene where Jon tried to get him to come around about Stannis. I also liked that they had Stannis and Melisandre treating Mance respectfully (you know, aside from burning him alive), instead of being made into caricatures. And Jon, doing what was right and damn the consequences, killing Mance with bow and arrow (which I will take as an homage to Ygritte), was a good way to end the episode.

The "eh":

- Well, I had a good laugh at whoever came up with the idea to have the Meereen prostitute show off her lady parts and then have the Unsullied say, "Not that much." This was someone's clever attempt at getting all the goods oncamera but trying to feign modesty, I guess.

The Unsullied's murder was a genuine shock moment and a good way to introduce the threat Dany and her army faces. Everything with Dany in this episode was essentially ticking off a box - regret and doubt over dragons, struggles to lead Meereen, struggles to accept that her pure and ideal vision of harmony under thumb is not the way life will be. It was decent enough, and Emilia is decent enough at playing it. I can't say I'm enthralled, but it's OK.

I know Dany needs a talk-to, but I wish they'd found someone, anyone as Daario that she would have had chemistry with. The only memorable thing about Daario continues to be that he has a flat ass.

- Tyrion and Varys. The only reason I didn't put this in "bad" is because I like Varys and am happy to see him in a more central role. I'm bored beyond belief with Tyrion, his pouting, his drinking, his pity parties, and his "profound" dialogue that is sure to be plastered all over tumblr, Twitter, AV Club and IGN and other review sites. "The future is [!@#$%^&*], just like the past." Just like your scenes since the end of season 2, Tyrion. If only the show would have the guts to write this character out. I see no purpose for him at this point. Oh well.

- Sansa and Littlefinger. It was serviceable, not much to remember, but then, it wasn't intended to be. I wish they'd had more of a unique relationship between Sansa and Robin, or any relationship at all, but I did laugh at Robin having to learn swordfighting. One thing I noticed in this episode, not for the first time, is that Sophie Turner and Aiden Gillen don't have much chemistry together - Sophie's chemistry with everyone in King's Landing made her time there one of my favorite parts of the show.

The bad:

- Everything with Loras. Horse [!@#$%^&*] would be a kind word for it. The idea that a man who had been so full of ambition, who knew something of the score and what you should and shouldn't do, and who is the sole male heir of the Tyrells, a whip-smart family who know all about appearances, would decide he can just get dick anytime he wants and who cares about what anyone says - I do not buy it. It was ludicrous in season 3 and it's even more ludicrous now, given the obvious instability of King's Landing and the realm. I also do not believe he would be doing this with Olyvar, who betrayed the family in season 3 and ruined their plans for Loras to marry Sansa. I do assume Margaery or Olenna would have realized it, even if Loras does not.

And while I'm at it, the scene where he "comforted" Cersei was also poor and pointless. They both know their relationship is a sham. He wouldn't have bothered and she wouldn't have let him prattle on. It was an unfortunate attempt at comedy on a show that seems to have lost more and more of its ability in that area.

I'd give the episode a C. What worked worked, and the rest lumbered along like a half-asleep relative waiting for the service to be over.

[Vee]

Stannis Baratheon's style of upper management has begun to remind me of my eccentric boss. "Hurry, Jon Snow!"

[quartermainefan]

He is a tiresome grumpy drippy character and I never enjoy when he and his whole crew is on. He, his friend, and that witch girlfriend of his are all no fun to watch.

[Vee]

Well, I liked that a lot. A slower setup, but I'm good with that. After the last season I think it needed it.

I loved everything with Jon and ol' Mance Rayder and the Baratheon camp. There were shades of Vietnam in that moral standoff. I did like the moment of respect between Stannis and Mance, but at the same time you know this whole setup is fucked, that Melisandre's cause (if not Melisandre herself - I think she is still a very canny operator) is insane. I think Stannis has some noble intentions amidst all his rigid, hidebound thinking and addled dysfunction, but I think this has gone far enough that in the end, before this is over, Jon will have to kill both king and priestess. And he'll be right. They won't stop because they can't.

I loved the Cersei flashback. I wish we'd seen more of that era. Cersei, of course, is still drinking and bitching and not paying attention to the right things. Jaime was right. I also laughed that they brought in poor Robin Arryn for a minute to get knocked about. I wasn't expecting to see him again.

I am thrilled the whole Daenerys plotline is finally moving along with Tyrion and Varys in play - I can't wait to see them with her - but I also may be one of maybe a hundred people in the world out of millions of viewers who really enjoy seeing the nuts and bolts of her leadership, of her learning how to lead, how to manage. Daario was right, and to me so much of her story resembles the collision of ideology with practical solutions, and ruling, only in a much more chaotic world. Daenerys will, IMO, eventually need a more calming equal - like Jon Snow. As for those dragons, all I can think is that in about a year Bran will make a hell of a Pokemon dragon tamer.

I was glad they gave Finn Jones and Will Tudor a solid modicum of nudity, because Will Tudor's ass in particular remains glorious. I think that happy couple is doomed because of their impulsiveness, but who knows, really. But I also just don't find there to be anything wrongheaded about that potential development, or about anything with Loras - he's a tertiary character who is sometimes a liability to his family because of a certain lack of critical or strategic thinking and a certain weakness, like at least a dozen other characters on the show, male or female, gay, straight or otherwise. I don't think they particularly demean him for it anymore than they do Cersei for her boozing and insanity, Tyrion for his many foibles, Stannis for his obsessive dogma, Daenerys for her ideological impulsiveness. The Lannisters were supposed to be geniuses but they have all fallen to their own vulnerabilities; the Starks were honorable but naive; Stannis Baratheon (who I personally find fascinating) is in some ways a just warrior, but he is also living the world's most lethal and deranged midlife crisis while being dicknotized by a murderous cult. Every character is flawed.

The Tyrells have always been matriarchal in power, and both Loras and his father have always been presented as either impulsive and hedonistic (in Loras' case) or buffoonish (in his father's). I don't think Loras being presented in this way shows anything other than equality between the characters of different orientation mentioned above, because there's a score of other characters on this show with Achilles' heels or weaknesses just like him. Loras Tyrell's a character I like, but I never saw him as needing to be a wholly positive or heroic character (nor do I think they present him negatively, really). Loras as the hero just looking for love, or going on an adventure, is just not a story I've ever expected to see with that character, and to me that's okay. It doesn't matter to me that he's gay, it matters that he is equal.

And I do think Sophie Turner and Aiden Gillen actually have entirely too much chemistry. I don't know where that plotline's going but I hope Sansa's packing some steel.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Vee

[DRW50]

But does having an awkwardly blocked nude scene on a bed with another man mean he's being treated equally?

We know other things about Tyrion, Cersei, even Stannis - we see various sides of them.

What do we see of Loras?

We see various scenes devoted to him being gay, how this is lurid and hilarious, and how his being gay and apparently trolling for prostitutes (even a prostitute who sold out the entire family not all that long ago) brings trouble to people around him.

His main scenes in season 3 were "lol gay." His main scene in season 4 was "lol gay." And here we are again, aside from the bizarre segue where he and Olyvar went on and on about how he had a birthmark in the shape of Dorne.

Edited April 14, 2015 by DRW50

[DRW50]

They're one of the main reasons I stick with the show. I really think the strength of characterization and performances make them stand out. I also love how serious Stannis is without having to be emo, like Tyrion, Arya, and sadly, even Brienne have become. This show often seems to think somber = a 12 year old goth girl.

[Vee]

I just don't see his scenes as lampooning him for being gay. I think we saw Loras' more sober and loving side with Renly, but Renly is dead, and after that I can see why he's thrown himself into a considerably less emotionally taxing thing with Olyvar. He is a third-tier character and that is his arc, and I'm good with that. I also don't think they treat him as any more lurid than any other character on the show - plenty of the guys who like chicks troll for prostitutes, Tyrion included. I think the way they present him is that Loras is the way he is because that's who he is (and because he's a male Tyrell), not because he's gay. He's got a good and loving heart but he sometimes makes poor choices, and he is not equipped to deal with the gamesmanship of King's Landing. There are at least a half dozen other characters we can tag with similar description and they're not gay.

The way it was presented last night, both Loras and Olyvar know exactly who the other is and don't care, and I find that nice. Would I like a bigger story for him? Sure, maybe, but it's not a going priority for me with all the other big storylines I enjoy. It's just personally not a major consideration for me, in the case of this show. With another show it might be different, but with GOT I think there is still a source text with certain parameters they have to work within, millions of characters to service, and miles to go. Loras is just one small cog to me.

[DRW50]

Yes, but Loras is the only gay man on the show. There's more they can do with him in spite of that - he's a well-respected knight, he's Margaery's brother, he's betrothed to Cersei.

Yet in three seasons, his scenes have amounted to:

season 3 - gushing with Sansa about how much he loves to plans weddings, rolling around in bed with a whore, having one or two awkward conversations with Cersei

season 4 - making sex eyes with Oberyn for no apparent reason, other than to remind us yet again that he is gay and Oberyn is bisexual (the show seemed so unsure we wouldn't remember that that they mentioned it in about 5 straight episodes). Having a snappy encounter with Jaime that amounted to "lol gay" and "lol incest"

season 5 - a brief awkward scene with Cersei; rolling around in bed with the same prostitute who sold out his entire family, telling Margaery that he doesn't care whether or not anyone knows he's gay, because he's not marrying Cersei anyway

Compare this to a character like Bronn, who in spite of having no relationships on the show other than Tyrion, still got several strong scenes with Jaime and a lengthy goodbye scene with Tyrion where we learned about his new plans and new wife.

Even saying he's not equipped for King's Landing or that he has a good, kind heart is basically fanwanking at this point, because he has none of that type of material onscreen. They spent more time showing an ugly birthmark on his leg than they have in actually writing for him.

I think the show has a very stereotypical view of gay and bisexual men and they choose not to break out of that. Even Oberyn was just treated as someone to leer at until his last two episodes. If there were more diversity on the show it would not bother me this much, but speaking as someone who is not a crazed "how dare Loras betray Renly" or "how dare they forget Loras' true characterization" fan, I'm still disappointed to see him having little to do beyond dicking the most duplicitous whore around.

Edited April 14, 2015 by DRW50

[quartermainefan]

Lores to me is this tertiary character who the show clearly will not spend time on unless the plot calls for it. Bronn was Tyrion's BFF for the first few years so yes he will get more writing than Lores, who is nothing more than Margeary's brother. Margeary herself isn't a main character so it shouldn't be that big a shock her support characters don't get much attention. It's like that wild woman who is tending to the MIA Rickon, she exists and we know her, but the show is not in the business of hanging stories on her. Or Rickon apparently, or Gendry, or the magical sister who is with Bran, or so many others who are on to flesh out the show and the world. Lores might eventually have a dramatic purpose, but that time clearly isn't now.

[quartermainefan]

They bring the show down for me every time they are on. She is a fake witch too. She gave birth in season 2 to black smoke or some sort of monster and nothing ever became of it. That was a fake out plot development that went nowhere. Then she put leeches on Gendry's tesiticles for some reason in season 3 but nothing ever became of that. She talks and talks but doesn't actually do anything.

[DRW50]

The black smoke monster killed Renly.

The leeches were to kill Balon, Robb, and Joffrey, although whether she caused it or not is up to interpretation.

Loras was a lot more than just Margaery's brother in the first two seasons. Bronn was only ever just there so he and Tyrion could have smirkfests about how much they love whores.

[Vee]

I don't think Oberyn was handled the way you do, but we've been over that before so I'm just not going to argue it. I think Oberyn (as presented on the show, anyway) was a noble and heroic man who owned who he was as a sexual being, in addition to being a warrior. I think his fatal flaw was his obsession with getting more of a measure of justice than he ever could. He should have killed Clegane when he had a chance.

I think there are a score of either hedonistic or impulsive and rash characters on this show like Oberyn, whose flaws lead them down bad roads which may or may not have to do with their sexual needs - they didn't with Oberyn IMO, they have with every single one of the surviving adult Lannisters. Loras is a different case, and I think what they've repeatedly shown is that he is a babe in the woods compared to power players like his grandmother or sister, or his intended bride. I don't think that has anything to do with his being gay so much as his temperament and perspective. If Renly had been a woman he'd have been dazzled by those love affairs instead vs. knowing when to play the game. Nice guy, photogenic Knight of the Flowers, dashing lord who just wants to be happy and duel, but not equipped for that political world. Even when Renly was alive, both he and Loras were tertiary characters.

I don't think they've turned Loras into a whore just because he isn't actively mourning Renly in Season 5; I think life goes on and so does he. I'd honestly find the former far worse and more regressive - the tragic, sad gay. I know what you're saying about other fans vs. you but I just don't think it's as awful as you make out. To me, ultimately, both of them and their relationship was a subplot, much like Loras' story now. I'm not sure if they know what to do with him but since I don't read the books I'm also not sure what there is to do. Maybe they'll whip up something now that they're going off-road, I'd be fine with that. But I don't think anything they've done with is a signifier about gay characters on GOT or on television, and all I can say is it's never offended me or rubbed me wrong anymore than when the straight characters make blunders in similar situations. I think just about everyone on GOT is fair game for whatever. I think they try to invest a measure of sympathy and dimension into almost everyone, which is why they've stuck with, say, Theon's story even when he was easily one of the most vile and pathetic villains of Season 2. I think that was a bold choice, to follow him into the abyss and beyond, because you come out with sympathy for him even when he made all his own terrible choices. Other shows would have cut him loose then.

Margaery, IMO, is a main character, but Loras, not so much. And I like Bronn!

[Skin]

I literally bust out laughing when I saw this post. Only in Games Of Thrones can something so absurd exist, to where this has legitimately taken place, in story.

I've caught up on all of the four episodes that were leaked, I won't spoil anything, I'll just leave general thoughts, with specifics left out.

I am beyond tired of the Cersei and Margery, power plays. I just want Dany to come in dragons blazing and level all of Kings Landing just so all of this could be over. The Lannisters reached their story apex somewhere in the fourth season and the Tyrell's never felt that intimidating even at their best to re-energize interest in them, so I'm officially over them as of now. I'm just so thoroughly exhausted from all that's happening in the Kings Landing area, yet it gets the most focus and airtime -- when it's not deserved.

I hope season five will be Dany's season. She's kind of been a side note, in that she is so removed from everything that is happening, but that's really where I see the story going, and where I think the most interesting part of the show is. Meereen is such a hot bed of action, and it's interesting to see how she's going to deal with the inner conflicts that are at work there. They really could carve out a solid 30 minutes just with that storyline each episode, I would be content with that.

The wall storyline is always so dreadfully boring to me so what do the writers do? Bring in Milesandre, to make it even worse and even more tedious to sit threw. Stannis' storyline is probably one of the worst ones in the entire series -- in terms of both relatability and engagement, and I am just so confused as to why it's been stretched out over multiple seasons, it always struck me as at most a B/C plot at it's best back in season 2, so it's shocking to me to see it gain even more prominence this late in the series. It's also shocking how little I care about Stannis and his storyline. Is anyone else disgusted by the fact that his wife, is so openly supportive of his relationship with his mistress, Milesandre? and how deplorable she is to their own daughter? It just makes me want to throw all three of them off a cliff, and I find all three of them unbearable unlikable. The whole thing with Milesendre and Stannis is so vile and revolting, and them together is one of the worst things about the show along with the Theron torture storyline, which also offends me to my core.

Arya and Tyrion feel influx and a bit directionless, but I guess they will find there places, but I feel like the show is wasting time with them, along with Brienne(?), the woman knight. All three could be utilized a bit better. They could be more productive about what they are showing us, as viewers. I'm looking forward to Sansa's upcoming story, so there's that. But just very little being started and the show still feels a bit in a holding pattern in some places.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Skin

[DRW50]

It's sad, and also not the most original portrayal (the woman who can't be a mother to her child because she has lost so many babies and her husband doesn't love her), but the tragedy of the whole thing moves me rather than annoys me. The woman who plays Selyse is a terrific actress, and she balances the bitterness of Selyse with the brokenness. She needs Melisandre and needs to believe in her. And it's not a story we get that often with arranged marriages on the show - other than Lisa Arryn, most arranged marriages either end in the woman being strong and winning (Cersei) or the couple falling in love (Dany/Drogo, Catelyn/Ned). This is a marriage that has never been and will never involve love, so instead Selyse looks to Melisandre to guide and please Stannis and to guide her, even if she deep down has some resentment toward Melisandre.

Melisandre and Stannis (who wants none of the power or glory and just operates 100% from duty) and Selyse are so complex and Davos is such a teddy bear of a man. They're my favorite group on the show.

Brienne is a character we see too much of for the near-invisible amount of character development she gets. I wish they'd killed her off in season 3.

[dm.]

The only downside to watching the leaked episodes is waiting 4 weeks to continue the story.

Edited April 15, 2015 by dmarex