But you don't understand. Soaps just need to tell good stories. That's it. And they'll last forever. Forever, I say! All they have to do is tell good stories, use their vets, "have diversity" (whatever that means), and "have balance" (ditto), and they'll last hundreds and hundreds of years because people will always be interested in watching soaps exactly the way they are presented to us right now: 5 days a week, in daytime, and the only way the audience counts is if they are watching it five days a week, in daytime, everyday, for the rest of their lives.

Oh, do pay attention, no one is saying that. At least, I'm not.

Your nihilism is charming but I see that like Sylph you fail to offer a solution other than calling the rest of us delusional. There is also a degree of resentment about "those soap viewers who are isolated from the marketplace who don't understand the rest of television viewing habits." Oh, but I do understand. And I've bad news for the both of you: Like me, you are authenticated posters at Soap Opera Network. You are those people. You guys can hold up as many "I'm Not With Them" signs as you want, but it won't make a difference to the network.

Edited December 10, 200916 yr by Vee

Oh, do pay attention, no one is saying that. At least, I'm not.

Your nihilism is charming but I see that like Sylph you fail to offer a solution other than calling the rest of us delusional. There is also a degree of resentment about "those soap viewers who are isolated from the marketplace who don't understand the rest of television viewing habits." Oh, but I do understand. And I've bad news for the both of you: Like me, you are authenticated posters at Soap Opera Network. You are those people. You guys can hold up as many "I'm Not With Them" signs as you want, but it won't make a difference to the network.

Oh, Lord, I'm not Sylph. I'm not trying to call anybody delusional or saying that I have this almighty knowledge that none of you possess. I'm just a poster like everyone else, offering up what I think about the discussion. And that's precisely why I don't have a solution. If I had a solution, I'd be working at a network that has an awesome soap lineup, but sadly, I do not.

Oh, Lord, I'm not Sylph. I'm not trying to call anybody delusional or saying that I have this almighty knowledge that none of you possess.

I absolutely love that myth. And how it keeps on enduring.

And P. S. I would love to see where exactly and precisely did I say:

1. I want to write for daytime.

2. I am your man. I have the solution. Hire me.

3. I am omniscient.

4. You are all id!ots and deluded.

There is a search function above. Sylph the Witch is as boring as some of daytime right now. All recycled, trite, not true claims perpetuated ad nauseam.

Edited December 10, 200916 yr by Sylph

I absolutely love that myth. And how it keeps on enduring.

Now I see how horrible that looked

Those were meant to be taken separately. Not: "I'm not Sylph BECAUSE I'm not calling people delusional" but "I'm not Sylph, and also, I'm not calling people delusional."

Besides, you're just radioactive toxicity.

Bill Bell might have wrote rich best of them all, but rich people don't live like that any more.

And yet...Bravo's gotten fat on showing us the cheap, tawdry, plastic uber-rich and their messed up lives?

We've become a nation obsessed with knowing everything about everyone...who Tiger flucks and whether or not he's getting a divorce, Anna Nicole's tragic messed up life and death, etc. etc. What used to draw snickers from "the public" (like reading the Enquirer twenty five years ago) is now flooding tv, the internet and talk radio 24/7.

There are a multitude of reasons shows and entertainment is dying. Soaps can't earn back money because they can't show repeats like primetime. The Neilsens have always been a flawed rating system. Advertisers inexplicably value the 18-34 demo more than any other. The niche cable boom. Whatever.

I just think it's sad. Public humiliation now passes for "entertainment".

All in all...I'd much rather watch ATWT. Flaws and all.

Edited December 10, 200916 yr by P.J.

It won't matter if John or Lucinda or Lisa or whoever is in frontburner storylines. It will not matter. Casual viewers (casual viewers, not us) do not care about "mining history" because half of the time, it was probably history they never saw, and I don't think they'll respect "mining history" just because. They might even put it down. "They're still talking about stuff that happened 40 years ago? WTF? They can't be original?" Not everyone studies soap opera and wants to be the perfect soap opera writer or cares about the "core tenets of soap opera."

I actually think it matters a lot. Casual viewers want something which can draw them in. They don't have to know the history if the story is solid. The history is just an extra treat for the story.

Imagine if you were a new viewer to ATWT in 1985. You see this woman who is being stalked, and you know that people are being killed. Who is doing all this? Is she in danger? Or her husband, or kids? Who is doing this? Is it her somewhat bitter ex, who hates her husband? Is it her husband's ex, who has never stopped loving him? Is it a piano player Kim used to work with?

Then you find out that the stalker is her stepdaughter's fiance, the perfect gentleman. You find out around the same time the stepdaughter does. You see this room of mementos not long before she does. You experience her shock and terror and you wonder what the final stage of the plan will be. You dread and yet you cannot wait for the moment when Kim also sees this room.

This could easily hook a casual viewer. Yet, the story also effortlessly used history. Did you need to know every detail of the history between John, Lisa, Kim, and Bob? No, it was just there, to be absorbed. It was an added layer for new viewers to uncover and a special treat for longtime viewers.

This wasn't like Ellen and Nancy sitting around talking about the old days when Edith Hughes scandalized Oakdale. This was flawlessly intertwining decades of history with the present day.

That is what soaps should be.

And P. S. I would love to see where exactly and precisely did I say:

1. I want to write for daytime.

2. I am your man. I have the solution. Hire me.

3. I am omniscient.

4. You are all id!ots and deluded.

There is a search function above. Sylph the Witch is as boring as some of daytime right now. All recycled, trite, not true claims perpetuated ad nauseam.

Much like Chris Goutman's As The World Turns, Sylph, it's not that you say it outright, it's your actions that tell the tale of your attitude.

But just like every other thread your self-obsession infects, this one is not about you. However, if you or anyone else is going to tell the rest of us we've got it wrong, you could at least look at what we're saying and notice the solutions we offer, which is something you never do. You focus on shooting down posters' feelings about daytime, whereas the posters themselves are trying to talk about the future and the product. Your message has never been anything but the product is dead and everyone else is an idiot.

Edited December 10, 200916 yr by Vee

Oh, Lord, I'm not Sylph. I'm not trying to call anybody delusional or saying that I have this almighty knowledge that none of you possess. I'm just a poster like everyone else, offering up what I think about the discussion. And that's precisely why I don't have a solution. If I had a solution, I'd be working at a network that has an awesome soap lineup, but sadly, I do not.

Fair enough. But you're missing the point of many of these posts, which is that no one is saying the soap can totally survive in the same form as it always has, and that John and Lisa and Lucinda on frontburner is the way to go. When people talk about preserving and updating daytime's core traits, they are not talking about anything so specific as that and I outlined that in the last page.

I actually think it matters a lot. Casual viewers want something which can draw them in. They don't have to know the history if the story is solid. The history is just an extra treat for the story.

Imagine if you were a new viewer to ATWT in 1985. You see this woman who is being stalked, and you know that people are being killed. Who is doing all this? Is she in danger? Or her husband, or kids? Who is doing this? Is it her somewhat bitter ex, who hates her husband? Is it her husband's ex, who has never stopped loving him? Is it a piano player Kim used to work with?

Then you find out that the stalker is her stepdaughter's fiance, the perfect gentleman. You find out around the same time the stepdaughter does. You see this room of mementos not long before she does. You experience her shock and terror and you wonder what the final stage of the plan will be. You dread and yet you cannot wait for the moment when Kim also sees this room.

This could easily hook a casual viewer. Yet, the story also effortlessly used history. Did you need to know every detail of the history between John, Lisa, Kim, and Bob? No, it was just there, to be absorbed. It was an added layer for new viewers to uncover and a special treat for longtime viewers.

This wasn't like Ellen and Nancy sitting around talking about the old days when Edith Hughes scandalized Oakdale. This was flawlessly intertwining decades of history with the present day.

That is what soaps should be.

That's not casual viewing though. I'd have to watch several episodes within the same month or so to get all of these beats that you mentioned. If I'm merely someone who isn't going to work on a particular day, and I know that tomorrow, I won't be sitting here watching ATWT, it won't matter to me.

And even if I hooked up the VCR or (today) set up the DVR, that won't matter to the show because Nielsen makes no sense.

Let me emphasize, I am not saying that the whole jargon of storylines, writing, characters, is unimportant. It is EXTREMELY important because that's what keeps long-term fans tuned in, and once you lose them, you've lost them all. But what I'm saying is that there are indeed other factors that have had really ginormous effects on soaps that shouldn't just be pushed aside so that we can beat up on TPTB all the time.

We all agree that for soap ratings to go up, with Nielsen's current system, there has to be more people watching soaps everyday in the daytime instead of going to work or to class, correct?

And yet...Bravo's gotten fat on showing us the cheap, tawdry, plastic uber-rich and their messed up lives?

We've become a nation obsessed with knowing everything about everyone...who Tiger flucks and whether or not he's getting a divorce, Anna Nicole's tragic messed up life and death, etc. etc. What used to draw snickers from "the public" (like reading the Enquirer twenty five years ago) is now flooding tv, the internet and talk radio 24/7.

There are a multitude of reasons shows and entertainment is dying. Soaps can't earn back money because they can't show repeats like primetime. The Neilsens have always been a flawed rating system. Advertisers inexplicably value the 18-34 demo more than any other. The niche cable boom. Whatever.

I just think it's sad. Public humiliation now passes for "entertainment".

All in all...I'd much rather watch ATWT. Flaws and all.

Warhol was right.

Now I see how horrible that looked

Those were meant to be taken separately. Not: "I'm not Sylph BECAUSE I'm not calling people delusional" but "I'm not Sylph, and also, I'm not calling people delusional."

Besides, you're just radioactive toxicity.

Too true! I forgot about that!

I should check out of this thread for a few hours, to let some people calm down and take a deep breath!

Basically, I feel like I'm in bizarro world because I'm finding myself in agreement with Sylph for this last page and a half.

You and me both. LOL!

Your example of the game show is perfect. The game show genre which is dismissed by so many people here is one that dwindled, but never died completely. Game shows will always be popular programming choices for the network because they are inexpensive to produce and there is an audience that will tune in. Daytime serials may be able to follow this trend if Y&R and one or two soaps hold on and creative ways are found to substantially reduce production costs while keeping the soaps looking reasonable good. Our society has changed. There are never going to be enough women at home to watch daytime television ever again and there are too many alternative choices two watch on tv.

Edited December 10, 200916 yr by Ann_SS

And yet...Bravo's gotten fat on showing us the cheap, tawdry, plastic uber-rich and their messed up lives?

I'm not saying that's an alternative path TV should follow. In any way. Nouveau riche and their pathetic attention-seeking attempts I couldn't care less about.

There are other rich/"rich" people I talk about.

You and me both. LOL!

Another BOOM! Ann and I agree about something!

That's not casual viewing though. I'd have to watch several episodes within the same month or so to get all of these beats that you mentioned. If I'm merely someone who isn't going to work on a particular day, and I know that tomorrow, I won't be sitting here watching ATWT, it won't matter to me.

I think it does count as casual viewing. From what I have seen of that story, nearly every day had something which would probably stand out to a casual viewer. You don't have to pay attention to intricate details to the story to know what is going on. You know a woman's life is in danger, you know anyone around her could be the culprit.

If I compare this to the stunts which soaps relied on later, like random psychos taking people hostage and screaming for an entire episode, or big histrionics involving men telling women what dirt whores they are as they screech and weep for their sins, or the "life-changing" crash/storm/stubbed toe, I think this type of thing is much more likely to draw in a casual viewer and make them want to see what will happen next.

That's what soaps should be about. Telling stories longtime fans enjoy, yet a casual viewer can also get hooked.

But what I'm saying is that there are indeed other factors that have had really ginormous effects on soaps that shouldn't just be pushed aside so that we can beat up on TPTB all the time.

I don't think it's about "beating up on TPTB all the time," so much as how many times some of us can hear a variation of "It doesn't matter, daytime is dying, the soaps have no say in the matter, they were doomed from the start!" I'm not saying that YOU are saying this, but this has been said in one form or another so many times, especially in the Y&R threads, that I tend to have a somewhat terse response.

Yes, there were other factors, but then, there were other factors in the 70s, and soaps managed to pull themselves together and survive.

Most of the people running soaps now do not care, and instead of hearing various reasons about why their apathy or hostility towards soaps is not a big deal, I'd rather point out that their failings played a large role in so many people abandoning soaps over the past 15 years.