ATWT Canceled

[P.J.]

What "public good graces"? As far back as I can remember, ATWT was "your grandma's soap". GH and Days were hipper, Y&R was considered the "creme de la creme". AMC more topical. (Sorry, I don't know what OLTL was...) Santa Barbara was the critic's darling. Capitol the flash in the pan, B&B camped it up.

If you're referring to Sheffer's "renaissance"---I got news for you, the ratings kept dropping under him. All the emmys, the publicity, the personal adulation he got for supposedly "reinventing the wheel"---didn't draw in new viewers, didn't keep the ones we had.

The biggest mistake Goutman made was not figuring out Sheffer wrote in circles sooner. Other things contributed, but drinking the Kool-Aid and giving Sheffer the license to "reinvent" long-standing legacy characters to the point they were unrecognizable, human parasites (and YES, I'm referring to Hunt Block's Craig first and foremost...but changing Paul Ryan from a struggling hero to a selfish, dithering Hamlet-esque dweeb and Dusty into a straight up Thug) was the beginning of the last chapter. IMO.

And Rux, don't sweat it. I wasn't objecting to a convo on the state of daytime, but to the personal pissing match between certain posters that threatened to take over the thread. The topic is ATWT/daytime, not who did what to whom in some other soap thread.

[trish672]

I don't see how the era of VCRs and basic cable is any way comparable to what's available today. Ease of access is vastly different for one. Of course more entertainment avenues are not the only reasons that viewership plummeted, but it's not something that can be easily dismissed either. There is a reason why both primetime and daytime are struggling to catch up. No one can tell me that there isn't a little correlation between technological progress and soap's fast falling ratings. Ratings have been steadily falling since the '90s regardless of quality. Has the ratings pecking order EVER corresponded with quality OR has Y&R and B&B really been the best soaps on daytime for almost 10 years straight? My point is TV ratings and quality do not always go hand in hand any more than box office and oscar-worthy films do. I'm not saying DVDs and the internet killed soaps. It just sped the decline. Although terrible writing played a large part.

Tell that to the viewers of incredible primetime shows that were cancelled during their prime. Or tell it to viewers of great shows that can't seem to find a large audience no matter how hard they try. Maybe tell it to the soap viewers who are utterly stupefied when an improving show only shows a slight improvement in the ratings. OR heaven forbid a decline! A show like GH could have a miraculous turnaround as far as quality goes but does anyone actually believe it will see 3.0s again? 2.5s maybe? Not a chance. Bottom line is a lot of these shows used up all the goodwill that was shown to them and its too late to turn the tide. They all fell together and in order to have a chance they'll have to rise together. DAYS has been a recent success but it'll only go so far before it hits a ratings wall that no other soap besides Y&R can jump. No soap is breaking too far from the pack no matter how good a year they have.

And more choices do in fact matter if there are more entertainment options for the casual or disappointed viewer. If a soap doesn't entertain, viewers are even LESS likely now than ever before to hang in there and give the soap a chance of winning them over.

[DRW50]

The fabric of Oakdale was gutted at that time. ATWT had been damaged at other times but there was usually a layering of history, family, friendship, warmth, community. All that was destroyed by Sheffer. Oakdale became very cold. Friendships were forgotten. Or painted as enabling, like when we were supposed to be amused at Barbara's descent into bad camp and look down on those like Kim who still tried to care about her. Foundations were torn down because it just was not cynical enough for Sheffer. We were supposed to root for the sneering types who hated everything and everyone, like Craig. Craig and that ever-present sneer and smirk and the labored one-liners. At the time there was a lot of debate over whether this was in character for Craig, but I don't think that mattered to Sheffer, because he has done this same type of character on every one of his shows, regardless of their past history. To see a Craig who had nothing but contempt for everyone (except Carly, and even that was often mired in a lot of forced banter and in bizarre plotlines like Jack getting raped so Craig would be seen as the real man), and the way he felt towards those who had once been his close friends, like Lily, it was hard to take.

Sheffer was very good at getting hype for himself. His contempt for soaps and his contempt for women and for men who weren't thugs got a lot of gushing coverage from the press, and they loved to talk about what a "great interview" he was. ATWT itself was an afterthought.

[quartermainefan]

It's a shame P&G doesn't take ATWT or GL into the world of the internet. Why not be the first legit online soap opera? Someone posted a link to a new web series starring Vanessa Marcil, and it looked like a movie. P&G could narrow the cast and and turn ATWT into an ongoing web series. I thought they should have gone totally crazy and returned GL to radio as an original drama series.

[Soapsuds]

I couldn't agree more about the soaps and their status. I really thought Hogan had a great solid 1 year after that he ran out of gas.

You nailed it on Goutman. Susty the thug.....Craig...Hunt Block I could take cause of his charm...but the next Craigs....Meeks and Lindstrom....UGH.....Lindstrom is just dull as nails in the role. Meek...totally wrong for the part. Scott Bryce finally returned but was fired....sigh....

Goutman didn't listen to the fans of ATWT. He even admitted he would not listen to them. Well hello??? That's the best way to piss off viewers and drive them off your show. Christopher Goutman is a complete moron.

[DRW50]

I guess I don't believe that the decline was sped by DVDs or the Internet. Soap ratings started taking big hits around 1994. At the time, OJ got the blame. The other ratings drops have been equally sharp. Long periods of stagnation followed by sudden drops. To me that indicates a lot of people who have tried to hang on but can't take it anymore.

I also don't think there's a huge difference between someone using a VCR in lieu of watching a soap or using a DVD. People could buy VCR tapes of movies or of TV shows. They could tape whatever they wanted and watch that. Or people could just watch movies on cable. That was even the excuse given by the executives back 15 years ago -- blame cable.

If anything I think the Internet might have stopped even bigger ratings freefalls for the soaps, as this at least gives those viewers who are tired of the show a reason to keep talking about it, and to keep some form of interest.

I think that soaps have lost viewers because they don't care about the loyalty of viewers, they don't care about their shows having an identity, they don't care about their shows having any real quality or integrity. They have constantly chased after younger viewers who have no interest in the dead-eyed, dour teens passed off as what is supposed to be the ideal. I think they have driven away many loyal fans. I think they have boxed themselves into some bizarre world of misogyny, racism, and cowardice which does not appeal to anywhere near as many viewers as they think. It's just fear of change, and a patronizing, negative view of the audience.

The problem is that we're not talking about a bad show which has high ratings they don't deserve, or a good show that doesn't have the ratings they deserve. We're basically talking about the entire genre of daytime. Primetime isn't the same. Yes, primetime has lost viewers with time, for many reasons, but a lot of people will still take a show on its own, they are not completely poisoned against all network TV. There are still a lot of primetime network shows that get big ratings.

I think that daytime has poisoned many viewers to the point where they will never return. I think that contempt and hostility and ignorance they have shown to the public has done far more damage than TMZ or DVD could.

[Soapsuds]

<------------------------------The Mr. Know It All That Got ATWT cancelled!!!

[P.J.]

I'm going to defend Goutman to this extent---I think that quote got blown WAY out of proportion. As EP, he can't simply say "well, FanbaseX wants this, so let's give them what they want---blue skies and palomino ponies, sunshine and happiness for them all the time." Couples have to go through conflict. It's never been the conflict between Carly and Jack I objected to (it's dumbing them down to further a stupid plot...) but it's the fact the "payoffs" grew smaller and smaller, and then jumped immediately into another dumb plot with no happiness in between. Case in point---Jack going off the bridge. To facillitate hiring SarahF'inBrown, Jack "married" that woman three-four weeks after waking up from a coma. When Carly did find him, EVERYONE in town started treating Julia as his "legal" wife, instead of the interfering hussy BITCH she was. And even after Jack got his memory back, returned to Carly, solved Julia's murder and rescued Carly from a fiery death---instead of letting us indulge in some Carjack love---the next week, Carly was on the path to finding out she'd been accused of killing her "baby brother"---in Oakdale when she was a child---convienently blocking it out, and having her history completely rewritten. (I have yet to figure out how a twenty year old mystery resulted in a seventeen year old sister..)

Would it have killed them to simply let Carly discover Gwen was her sister, and let her and Jack investigate and find Gwen together?

[JimTolkien]

Ummm....does "newer things" have to refer to a soap LOL. You are still giving me the reasons exactly why CBS has cancelled GL and ATWT has now bit the dust. We can analyze this all we want but clearly CBS knows exactly what they are doing and why. We can use the loyal viewers angle but you know they will find other type of viewers elsewhere. It's like the food chain LOL.

And B&B and Y&R should be quaking in their boots because they are not immune. It may take a few years but if they keep losing viewers faster than they gain them and not meets CBS' goals they have set for themselves and when I say gain, I mean a lot.....well..sadly, we all know the drill now.

[Soapsuds]

Eh...All soaps remaining have about a year left on air..so that would be 2011. Y&R will be gone by 2012 with no soaps left.

[JimTolkien]

Well those are still a few years, I was trying to be generous with my timeline LOL! But if Y&R at least can increase their viewership by 1,000,000 by the end of next year growing at a steady pace(with these "writers" can't see that)..they will push their eviction notice date out a bit farther.

[Soapsuds]

<---------How could we forget Pissy!! What a combo of a team!!

[bellcurve]

How much loyalty was really in soap advertising? People who want their products pitched did not value a loyal, older-skewing audience, which is what ATWT has in a nutshell.

Exactly.

But when you have people behind the scenes who secretly and openly believe daytime is dead, why would that inspire anyone to do a good story?

If Y&R and B&B really want to stay in business, the people behind the scenes have got to lose this defeatist attitude. If they don't care, why the hell should we?

[bellcurve]

I think you're majorly downplaying that quote. I have always and will always read that quote as a reply to people complaining about how bad the stories are on the show. And if I am not mistaken, that was what the SOD reporter was asking about. The overall quality of the show. I don't think there was anything meant about appeasing to specific fanbases.

[Soapsuds]

Nah...Y&R would have to start hitting the 5's for it to survive. CBS will replace it with a cheap talk show or game show. Just watch!!