37 minutes ago, Tonksadora said:

That's the most disgusting thing I've heard in months! Now how am I evuh gonna get that visual out of my head!

I have a question. I've been reading & searching to try to find it but I have not. I figure it's been posted & thoroughly discussed, so this is probably duplicating. Sorry. When it came out of a Locher room chat that Pamela K. Long had someone in mind for Reva Shayne & that someone was not KZ, who was it?

 

 

 

I know...it has kept me awake many a night...as a matter of fact, I almost got hit by a car crossing the street I was so distracted by that scene!!! : )

I don't  think they ever said who the actress was..Long just had a redhead in mind for Reva (which I can actually see) and then saw the KZ audition and was on it...which reminds me of when she saw MG, who they brought back for the aftermath of Blake being Chrissy at the Bauers for Christmas and Long was, "Damn, now that woman is SEXY!" and decided to bring her back full time. She had a great eye for talent!

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

I know...it has kept me awake many a night...as a matter of fact, I almost got hit by a car crossing the street I was so distracted by that scene!!! : )

I believe it!! 😜

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

I don't  think they ever said who the actress was..Long just had a redhead in mind for Reva (which I can actually see) and then saw the KZ audition and was on it...which reminds me of when she saw MG, who they brought back for the aftermath of Blake being Chrissy at the Bauers for Christmas and Long was, "Damn, now that woman is SEXY!" and decided to bring her back full time. She had a great eye for talent!

Thnx for the reply. I'll give a mental thank you to Pam Long for bringing MG back then. I post pictures of Maureen often, just for no reason, and I'd say that MG has equal opportunity attraction.

Reading the last few posts made me think of the great early 90's. Characters and relationships were well defined, they drove story, the show was an ensemble, there was no Josh and Reva, there was widespread acclaim and the ratings were up. Why did they change what worked? 

2 hours ago, bboy875 said:

Reading the last few posts made me think of the great early 90's. Characters and relationships were well defined, they drove story, the show was an ensemble, there was no Josh and Reva, there was widespread acclaim and the ratings were up. Why did they change what worked? 

Nancy Curlee Demorest & Stephen Demorest wrote for GL for a 10 year block, 1985-1994. The last years they were co-HW with Jim Reilly. Nancy was pregnant & wanted to take a year off to have a baby. I don't know if Reilly left then or not. So, there's one change, the writers.

5 hours ago, bboy875 said:

Reading the last few posts made me think of the great early 90's. Characters and relationships were well defined, they drove story, the show was an ensemble, there was no Josh and Reva, there was widespread acclaim and the ratings were up. Why did they change what worked? 

Basically, GL fell apart as Nancy Curlee left and JFP exerted more control.  The balance that Curlee and her team had created or sought to create was diminished, and what we got in its' wake was a GL that was skewed toward JFP's favorites.

Nancy Curlee Demorest had intended to stay out to have the child she was pregnant with and then get back in the game but she got pregnant again and stayed out another year to have this, their third child. I guess at that point life just happened because it turned into her permanent retirement. I think daytime could've used her and I think that is an understatement. In the Locher room chat she said that she really misses writing serials.

 

Let's talk a little more about the Wired for Sound performances.

According to a Soap Opera Digest blurb from 1982, the first was Judy Collins, followed by The B-52s. Bertie Higgins wasn't mentioned in the blurb, but YouTube has his June 8, 1982 appearance. SOD picks up with Ashford & Simpson and Maurice Gibb. And according to a July 5, 1982 issue of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Neil Sedaka was next (July 13), with Air Supply, The Waitresses and Quarterflash on the way. Plus, of course, Miss Jennifer Holiday.

My questions are: did any of these happen before or after the summer of 1982 and did they actually help in attracting viewers?

On 4/28/2022 at 2:26 PM, bboy875 said:

Reading the last few posts made me think of the great early 90's. Characters and relationships were well defined, they drove story, the show was an ensemble, there was no Josh and Reva, there was widespread acclaim and the ratings were up. Why did they change what worked? 

The early 90’s were the best. The characters and relationships were very well defined and stories involved a lot of characters. A soap is at its best when it’s about all kinds of relationships: lovers, families, friends and rivalries. I think soaps get it wrong when they focus on the idea of super couples. It gets tired quickly, and as was already mentioned, the stories get more ridiculous and they’re often isolated with maybe one other character in a triangle. And it repeats and repeats. Curlee and Demorest’s stories were rich, well-drawn and complicated because they’d involve other relationships and dynamics. It extended the stories in more plausible and interesting ways. I just recently watched again the Alexandra reveal to Billy about Roger’s affair with Mindy. Alex, Mindy, Billy, Roger, Vanessa, Nick, Nadine, Fletcher, Hamp, Holly and Ross. Really great actors, almost all 40+, excellent writing and everyone with clearly drawn motivations, perspectives and relationships. 

Betty Rea cast trained actors - when did she leave? That might’ve accelerated the decline? Because the caliber was still there with some, but never again with an ensemble like this.

The show at that time was also darker, sexier and moodier. Rauch was praised for brightening the look and feel in the later 90’s but I think it exposed lower production values and made it less intimate and consequently, less exciting. Having a darker vibe lended to the melodrama, as did a lot more closeup shots because the actors were skilled at filling each moment in scenes.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in the end, so many characters from this era were brought back. If they knew that was how to end it, why didn’t they try to return to what worked earlier and keep the show going?

 

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

... . A soap is at its best when it’s about all kinds of relationships: lovers, families, friends and rivalries. I think soaps get it wrong when they focus on the idea of super couples. It gets tired quickly, and as was already mentioned, the stories get more ridiculous and they’re often isolated with maybe one other character in a triangle. ... accelerated the decline? Because the caliber was still there with some, but never again with an ensemble like this.

When the supercouple began there weren't any battling fanbases fighting for their couple to get more airtime, etc. Doug & Julie were the first supercouple, literally the first to be dubbed so by the press. And, Julie was a Horton by blood if not by name. And, the couple was an extension of the Horton family as Doug's gateway in had been that he was Bill's prison cellmate.

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

The show at that time was also darker, sexier and moodier. Rauch was praised for brightening the look and feel in the later 90’s but I think it exposed lower production values and made it less intimate and consequently, less exciting. Having a darker vibe lended to the melodrama, as did a lot more closeup shots because the actors were skilled at filling each moment in scenes.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in the end, so many characters from this era were brought back. If they knew that was how to end it, why didn’t they try to return to what worked earlier and keep the show going?

 

Back in the day it wasn't just GL's Betty Rea who cast experienced actors. All the NY soaps did. Pete Lemay & Paul Rauch would go to plays together & they would always be on the lookout for possibles to cast.

I think in general when shows get cancellation orders that a question is always asked, who do we want to bring back for the final days. I don't think that question is asked when plans are being made for regular time upcoming stories. Maybe it should've been asked.

On 4/29/2022 at 1:58 AM, Tonksadora said:

Nancy Curlee Demorest had intended to stay out to have the child she was pregnant with and then get back in the game but she got pregnant again and stayed out another year to have this, their third child.

She said in interviews that she was moving over to GH and then found out about being preggers...and by that time she wanted to spend time with her family and not deal with the bullshit of being a headwriter. If I was Rauch I would have hired her as a consultant for at least a year, I think she would have been able to turn Reva back into...Reva instead of that self righteous heroine they attempted to make her.

 

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

I think soaps get it wrong when they focus on the idea of super couples. It gets tired quickly, and as was already mentioned, the stories get more ridiculous and they’re often isolated with maybe one other character in a triangle. And it repeats and repeats.

Agreed, and it also effects the budget....showcasing Zimmer constantly ( and I DO like her..not that MUCH of her) gave her too much power and allowed her to write her own ticket...when its an ensemble you can say "Here's the deal, if you don't like it we have Vanessa, Holly, Alex, Amanda...whoever over here with story...."

Also, you look at stuff like early 70s ATWT..which was supposed to be SO conservative and outdated...but its not..Dan and Susan have an open marriage, which ultimatley will fail, you have Dr. Shea seducing an older lonely woman from a core family, just for her money, she turns to drink when the town slut goes after him..town slut thinks she is in love, until she gets married to him and then they torture each other...it seems so much more adult and layered...sure Shea is a bad guy, but Lisa is not a psycho bitch and Claire is not perfect...Dan is not Jack Snyder..Mr. good guy being screwed over by Susan..they could be more cutting edge because they had Nancy and Chris back in the kitchen and everyone had shades of good and bad. 

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

Betty Rea cast trained actors - when did she leave? That might’ve accelerated the decline? Because the caliber was still there with some, but never again with an ensemble like this.

It was a huge loss (Rae) but Rauch said to Mimi Torchin I believe that they had to compete with Skinamax (remember those bad old soft core porn movies..) so they had to cast model types...(as if anyone is watching soft corn porn at 2 in the afternoon and if they are they arent going to turn it off to watch models fully clothed in pastel business suits...) Remember Jim Lemay went from being played by a normal looking guy to being played by that muscle guy who I believe was in some of those movies...but he was still boring and no one cared when he died in that fire (R.I.P. to the actor tho..) 

 

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

The show at that time was also darker, sexier and moodier. Rauch was praised for brightening the look and feel in the later 90’s but I think it exposed lower production values and made it less intimate and consequently, less exciting.

Agreed but JFP went way too dark...look at the Bauer set, it is bright for Christmas and then they kill Mo and the house is constantly shot dark..okay, storyline reasons there but the whole show was in shadow, along with Mo dying, the recasts, Alex being a cartoon shrew schreeching, Buzz taking over the show and all the women allowing this troll to obsess them..it all became depressing. But agreed on Rauch, the blinding lights on every damn set constantly looked terrible matched with the pastel clothes. The Spaulding mansion with Alan there and Alex gone should have been lit dark and more masculine, Carmen's house should be dark and isolating as her life should have been potrayed...etc.

 

1 hour ago, Patrick D said:

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that in the end, so many characters from this era were brought back. If they knew that was how to end it, why didn’t they try to return to what worked earlier and keep the show going?

Agreed...we spent so much time in Gradyville...why? Though I think Wheeler struck a good balance during her years, bringing people back like Van and Matt when needed for the story, she attempted to get Simon, Alex was always around (though admittedly not written correctly) and not driving story (which both she and Alan should not have been doing at that time..) Why they couldnt have just brought back Mindy earlier for Rick (his only successful pairing beside Abby IMO) leads me to believe Wheeler had better intentions then Gautman, she just didn't know how to pull it off. 

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

She said in interviews that she was moving over to GH and then found out about being preggers...and by that time she wanted to spend time with her family and not deal with the bullshit of being a headwriter. If I was Rauch I would have hired her as a consultant for at least a year, I think she would have been able to turn Reva back into...Reva instead of that self righteous heroine they attempted to make her.

That's right, she & Stephen had been hired to co-HW GH next, a big deal, but one they were looking forward to. I think she has a slightly different outlook looking back at not writing any more serials & how she feels about that lack, and who doesn't change their perspective looking at something from the front & then again later after the fact. From Wendy Riche I got an earful (in text) about how exhausting HWing a soap is, in answering me why Labine left GH when she did. I know that JFP had used Lemay as a Writer's Consultant & she could've used even a preggers Curlee.

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

 

Agreed, and it also effects the budget....showcasing Zimmer constantly ( and I DO like her..not that MUCH of her) gave her too much power and allowed her to write her own ticket...when its an ensemble you can say "Here's the deal, if you don't like it we have Vanessa, Holly, Alex, Amanda...whoever over here with story...."

KZ was very protective about whatever was in her contract and if anything was going to change it was going to change at contract time, at work cycle points, and NOT in between.

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

 

It was a huge loss (Rae) but Rauch said to Mimi Torchin I believe that they had to compete with Skinamax (remember those bad old soft core porn movies..) so they had to cast model types...(

I think most if not all of the industry made mistakes in casting models who were actor wannabes. Sure, some of them actually turned into good actors & many of them were mentored actively on the sets of their shows. I know that mentoring went on at AW & at GL.

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

 

 

Agreed but JFP went way too dark...look at the Bauer set, it is bright for Christmas and then they kill Mo and the house is constantly shot dark..okay, storyline reasons there but the whole show was in shadow, along with Mo dying, the recasts, Alex being a cartoon shrew schreeching, Buzz taking over the show and all the women allowing this troll to obsess them..it all became depressing.

Okay, Alex cartoon screeching, is that what the fan reaction at the time was to getting used to Marj Dusay's vocal mannerisms & volume? And, whose a troll?

 

 

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

 

 

 

But agreed on Rauch, the blinding lights on every damn set constantly looked terrible matched with the pastel clothes. The Spaulding mansion with Alan there and Alex gone should have been lit dark and more masculine, Carmen's house should be dark and isolating as her life should have been potrayed...etc.

 

Agreed...we spent so much time in Gradyville...why? Though I think Wheeler struck a good balance during her years, bringing people back like Van and Matt when needed for the story, she attempted to get Simon

They wanted Peter Simon back for so long & for so much story that they wanted to tell. I know that they didn't really want to go forward with Sebastian without him & then they just got stuck & had to change things. They even had Courtney plead their case, which I gather was really considered over & above.

And, Rauch just had a set look in his head of the way things would look. And, that applied to sets & costumes & even minute details & he would fight everyone. He fought his foes, of course, but he also fought his friends. Downight pugnacious. Never has one man had more interest in the colors & styles of women's garments without being IN the fashion biz.

 

1 hour ago, Mitch64 said:

Alex was always around (though admittedly not written correctly) and not driving story (which both she and Alan should not have been doing at that time..) Why they couldnt have just brought back Mindy earlier for Rick (his only successful pairing beside Abby IMO) leads me to believe Wheeler had better intentions then Gautman, she just didn't know how to pull it off. 

About the only things they had in common were having to fight CBS without an Exec-in-charge of Production/P&G going to bat for them & the edicts that CBS had handed down when they backed off their plan to cancel GL way back, relatively speaking. GL had the new production model and ATWT had changes in storytelling.

Casting under Ellen Wheeler was tough. No one may have been truly horrible, but no one stood out other than Pelphrey (at least initially). To be fair, it may have been the lack of rehearsal or direction but so many new hires from that era were just wallpaper (Michelle Ray Smith, Mandy Bruno, Jessica Leccia, Bonnie Dennison, Kane Manera, etc.) I don’t think the writing helped much. So many times the show between 2005 and 2008 tried to pass off static storytelling as character driven when it was simple plotless.

I know the budget was a mess and Zimmer’s refusal to take a cut hurt the show. As someone who enjoyed Reva at the time, I felt her character was still in the thick of things. I also felt her stance of demanding her contract be upheld wasn’t irrational. With all that said, I think a different EP would have just let Zimmer go and I don’t think that would have been the end of the world. 
 

For the last decade or so, I’ve wondered if “Guiding Light” could have pulled off a “Days of our Lives” style revamp (2008-2009) where they were basically the walking dead, dump a ton of the top salary actors, and managed to stay on the air. For example, could the show have dumped a significant portion of the remaining San Cristobal and mob contingent and told quieter stories with a mix of newer characters and some mid tier people? Instead, Wheeler/Kriezman tried writing a show without consideration of budget and trying to have recurring characters carry story. I always felt that the “Days of our Lives” of 2008-2011 had the texture of a P&G story while the plotting could skew more to the over the top. Also, given the demographics changed during Conboy and Weston, it might not have hurt to just tell good long story with a consistent cast and playing the beats along the way.

4 hours ago, Patrick D said:

A soap is at its best when it’s about all kinds of relationships: lovers, families, friends and rivalries. I think soaps get it wrong when they focus on the idea of super couples. It gets tired quickly, and as was already mentioned, the stories get more ridiculous and they’re often isolated with maybe one other character in a triangle. And it repeats and repeats.

Agree.  (By the way, @Patrick D, hello and welcome to the board!)

And I agree with the comments on the lighting and wardrobe during the Rauch era.  He had those same issues throughout his tenure on OLTL, too.  Especially toward the end, when it seemed to be a race between the set designers, the costume designers and the lighting designers as to who could be the most garish in their choices.

Of course, Rauch was replaced by John Conboy, who tried to remake GL into Y&R or CAPITOL and blew the budget to smithereens in the process.  Personally, I don't feel Conboy's aesthetic would have worked for GL, not even if he had had a better HW working with him.

Edited April 30, 20223 yr by Khan

1 hour ago, Khan said:

Especially toward the end, when it seemed to be a race between the set designers, the costume designers and the lighting designers as to who could be the most garish in their choices.

Just imagine what he put those folks through.

2 hours ago, Mitch64 said:

Also, you look at stuff like early 70s ATWT..which was supposed to be SO conservative and outdated...but its not..Dan and Susan have an open marriage, which ultimatley will fail, you have Dr. Shea seducing an older lonely woman from a core family, just for her money, she turns to drink when the town slut goes after him..town slut thinks she is in love, until she gets married to him and then they torture each other...it seems so much more adult and layered...sure Shea is a bad guy, but Lisa is not a psycho bitch and Claire is not perfect...Dan is not Jack Snyder..Mr. good guy being screwed over by Susan..they could be more cutting edge because they had Nancy and Chris back in the kitchen and everyone had shades of good and bad. 

Exactly.  From a writing standpoint, most classic soap opera, including '70's ATWT, never feels outdated, because the emphasis is on the human condition, which never changes.

Of course, there are some exceptions, but those are usually due to the fact that you have a HW or HW'ing team that manipulates the characters too frequently in order to service the plot.  (The Pollocks and the tired messes they wrote for THE DOCTORS come to mind, lol.)