12 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

@P.J. The scenes between Vanessa/Ross highlight why they never could get a relationship between the two right... starting at the 18 minute mark.

What's odd---just from a continuity point of view---is that they've completely written out Vanessa's engagement to Alan. If you didn't know the history, Ross makes it sound like Vanessa just walked out on him to go take care of Billy. They had broken up. He had either slept with Meredith or come damn close to it. She was engaged to Alan, and ditched him to go help Billy (not only because it was Billy but essentially because she admitted to herself that she didn't love Alan and knew he was using her as an emotional buffer to Reva) It was less than two years before, and written by Long, so why the situation was oversimplified, I don't understand.

Van is unusually ham-handed here, even jokingly comparing Billy to Roger. What I do find appealing about the Ross/Van relationship of this era is that they kind of drift back into teenage behavior. Ross will kind of poke fun of her (NO ONE did that to Vanessa, but Ross could get away with it.) and Van pulls out her coy flirty girl with him. (she'll flash him a smile, ask the "would you, if I wanted you to", and at the Heartbreaker's opening, he's with Nadine and Holly and kind of beckons her over and she won't, she makes him come to her...it's so endearing.) If you watch the preceding episode, Billy is trying to get her attention, and her attention is all on Ross.

The set up for Ross/Holly had clearly been in the works before Maeve even returned. But it would've been interesting (if Jordan hadn't returned/or not returned full time) to see a Van/Ross/Holly triangle.

2 hours ago, GL95 said:

Due to Lewises not named Billy (who appears to be the only one who thinks Nick believing terrible things about Mindy because of Eve seems like something you don't come back from romantically) pushing them together, Nick and Mindy went on a date. Mindy still isn't fully ready to jump back in and tells Nick so when he shows her to the door, and he is displeased when she calls it a night. Mindy goes to take a shower as montage music plays and is fully nude in the shower when Nick decides to just enter her place uninvited and walk into the shower with her. Instead of getting hit upside the head SINCE EVE HAD JUST BROKEN IN TO HURT HER WEEKS BEFORE, Mindy pulls him into the shower and they make out in the shower then have sex.

This is a trope I've seen repeatedly in TV and movies. I don't know if anyone has done this in real life - just walking into someone's home and stripping naked to join someone in the shower that you are estranged from or who is not ready for intimacy with you. I hope not. It's especially disturbing because I swear I've seen this trope done with rape victims more than once.

10 minutes ago, GL95 said:

I actually think the writing doesn’t really completely fall off the cliff until Curlee leaves. Second half of 1994 is probably my least favorite stretch of what I’ve watched recently though 1996 gives it a run for its money. I can’t think of a single bright spot of second half 1994 off the top of my head-front half at least had the Peter custody battle.

Curlee and co seem to leave the show by March 1994 in the middle of some odd transitions in the show.

The Frank/Julie/Eleni story + the Bridget custody case seem to be the highlights in the first half of 1994 along with Jenna trying to figure out her new normal post losing Spaulding.

Shame that the follow up writers had no clue how to handle these transitions.

19 minutes ago, P.J. said:

What's odd---just from a continuity point of view---is that they've completely written out Vanessa's engagement to Alan. If you didn't know the history, Ross makes it sound like Vanessa just walked out on him to go take care of Billy. They had broken up. He had either slept with Meredith or come damn close to it. She was engaged to Alan, and ditched him to go help Billy (not only because it was Billy but essentially because she admitted to herself that she didn't love Alan and knew he was using her as an emotional buffer to Reva) It was less than two years before, and written by Long, so why the situation was oversimplified, I don't understand.

Van is unusually ham-handed here, even jokingly comparing Billy to Roger. What I do find appealing about the Ross/Van relationship of this era is that they kind of drift back into teenage behavior. Ross will kind of poke fun of her (NO ONE did that to Vanessa, but Ross could get away with it.) and Van pulls out her coy flirty girl with him. (she'll flash him a smile, ask the "would you, if I wanted you to", and at the Heartbreaker's opening, he's with Nadine and Holly and kind of beckons her over and she won't, she makes him come to her...it's so endearing.) If you watch the preceding episode, Billy is trying to get her attention, and her attention is all on Ross.

The set up for Ross/Holly had clearly been in the works before Maeve even returned. But it would've been interesting (if Jordan hadn't returned/or not returned full time) to see a Van/Ross/Holly triangle.

I took the conversation between Ross/Vanessa in that scene to mean that her interest was never truly with him.. that he was her back up and not her #1.

At this point, I do lean toward Holly/Ross becoming a thing down the line with the mentions by Vanessa, Johnny, etc. I wonder if the show was looking to do a Ross/Sonni/Holly/Roger situation since Roger/Sonni seemed to be something the writers were investing in.

13 minutes ago, Soaplovers said:

I took the conversation between Ross/Vanessa in that scene to mean that her interest was never truly with him.. that he was her back up and not her #1.

At this point, I do lean toward Holly/Ross becoming a thing down the line with the mentions by Vanessa, Johnny, etc. I wonder if the show was looking to do a Ross/Sonni/Holly/Roger situation since Roger/Sonni seemed to be something the writers were investing in.

Quite likely, I would think. Swap Sonni for Alex, make some changes, and presto!

37 minutes ago, P.J. said:

What's odd---just from a continuity point of view---is that they've completely written out Vanessa's engagement to Alan. If you didn't know the history, Ross makes it sound like Vanessa just walked out on him to go take care of Billy. They had broken up. He had either slept with Meredith or come damn close to it. She was engaged to Alan, and ditched him to go help Billy (not only because it was Billy but essentially because she admitted to herself that she didn't love Alan and knew he was using her as an emotional buffer to Reva) It was less than two years before, and written by Long, so why the situation was oversimplified, I don't understand.

Van is unusually ham-handed here, even jokingly comparing Billy to Roger. What I do find appealing about the Ross/Van relationship of this era is that they kind of drift back into teenage behavior. Ross will kind of poke fun of her (NO ONE did that to Vanessa, but Ross could get away with it.) and Van pulls out her coy flirty girl with him. (she'll flash him a smile, ask the "would you, if I wanted you to", and at the Heartbreaker's opening, he's with Nadine and Holly and kind of beckons her over and she won't, she makes him come to her...it's so endearing.) If you watch the preceding episode, Billy is trying to get her attention, and her attention is all on Ross.

The set up for Ross/Holly had clearly been in the works before Maeve even returned. But it would've been interesting (if Jordan hadn't returned/or not returned full time) to see a Van/Ross/Holly triangle.

Van/Holly anything would have been interesting. There's an undefined obliqueness (for lack of a better descriptor) between those two that I find fascinating. Story? If not a Ross/Holly/Van triangle, then have Roger blackmail Holly of all people, with her ticket out of the mess being the destruction of Vanessa's career. Via WSPR, naturally.

6 minutes ago, DRW50 said:

This is a trope I've seen repeatedly in TV and movies. I don't know if anyone has done this in real life - just walking into someone's home and stripping naked to join someone in the shower that you are estranged from or who is not ready for intimacy with you. I hope not. It's especially disturbing because I swear I've seen this trope done with rape victims more than once.

In slight fairness to Nick, he doesn't strip naked. He just enters her apartment after she explicitly says she doesn't want him to come in then opens the shower curtain and surprises her while he's fully clothed. She kissed him and they make out in the shower with him fully clothed while getting soaking wet.

Given that Mindy was still feeling anxious about Eve breaking into her home and drugging/assaulting her it seemed like a pretty crazy way to have them officially back together. (Nick is pretty lucky because I have a hard time Billy Lewis's daughter who recently had a home break-in is not a gun owner haha)

Just now, GL95 said:

In slight fairness to Nick, he doesn't strip naked. He just enters her apartment after she explicitly says she doesn't want him to come in then opens the shower curtain and surprises her while he's fully clothed. She kissed him and they make out in the shower with him fully clothed while getting soaking wet.

Given that Mindy was still feeling anxious about Eve breaking into her home and drugging/assaulting her it seemed like a pretty crazy way to have them officially back together. (Nick is pretty lucky because I have a hard time Billy Lewis's daughter who recently had a home break-in is not a gun owner haha)

Thank goodness for small favors.

Mindy's toughness seems to vary between actresses. I think you or someone else said Ann Hamilton's Mindy was a crack shot. Krista's Mindy likely would have kneed him in the balls. Barbara Crampton was so vapid...

3 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Van/Holly anything would have been interesting. There's an undefined obliqueness (for lack of a better descriptor) between those two that I find fascinating. Story? If not a Ross/Holly/Van triangle, then have Roger blackmail Holly of all people, with her ticket out of the mess being the destruction of Vanessa's career. Via WSPR, naturally.

Having Holly approach Vanessa on Blake's behalf about Dinah rather than Blake trying to get through to Vanessa could've been interesting. I feel like they had a pretty similar journey with their adult daughters. I could see them forging something of a bond out of that though they did a lot off erasure of Blake's past around that point.

1 minute ago, DRW50 said:

Thank goodness for small favors.

Mindy's toughness seems to vary between actresses. I think you or someone else said Ann Hamilton's Mindy was a crack shot. Krista's Mindy likely would have kneed him in the balls. Barbara Crampton was so vapid...

Barbara Crampton's Mindy did say there was no way Billy could've been Roger's shooter because no way Billy would've missed haha

Barbara Crampton's Mindy is so weird because I actually think Barbara Crampton could do the more feisty/tough version of Mindy well given her other roles but instead seemed like she felt she needed to be a vapid version of Kimberly Simms or something, especially in those early days. I actually think once she wasn't saddled with Nick you could see her playing with that more, especially in the scenes with Rick.

4 hours ago, GL95 said:

Rather than a PI, they could've had Blake be a crisis manager/fixer. It's interesting to me that making her into a PI even had a lot of natural connection to her being in some sort of business with Ross, which I think actually would have helped them as a couple since Ross is a bit more pliable with the morals when it comes to lawyering. I hated that they made it like a cute little side thing for her to try being a PI when she used to be hyper competent and has a lot more natural PI/business traits than Frank. (There was this run circa 1992 or so where Frank would take a job then someone he is close was the person he found so he had to bow out-I swear he only successfully got paid when AM sent him on distraction missions to get him away from Eleni.)

Agree re: Blake being a crisis manager...a position often taken on by public relations executives in the real world. A perfect role for a yet-to-be tested, newly reformed/domiciled Blake.

There was maybe a six-month period in either 1994 or 95 when Ross and Blake were lacking money, which I always found odd since both were capable of pulling in cash. Did Ross lose lawyer business/contracts in the wake of Roger/Jenna's takeover of Spaulding? Was that it?

18 minutes ago, Speed Racer said:

Agree re: Blake being a crisis manager...a position often taken on by public relations executives in the real world. A perfect role for a yet-to-be tested, newly reformed/domiciled Blake.

There was maybe a six-month period in either 1994 or 95 when Ross and Blake were lacking money, which I always found odd since both were capable of pulling in cash. Did Ross lose lawyer business/contracts in the wake of Roger/Jenna's takeover of Spaulding? Was that it?

Ross had some financial issues after the takeover but then got hired on as the corporate lawyer when the Spauldings got it back. I can't remember what it was, but Ross had too much of being bossed around by Alexandra/felt he was being compromised increasingly and quit Spaulding sometime during the custody hearing time period IIRC. (I remember Ross taking a call that annoyed him from Alex while in court and quitting.). What's funny is it didn't seem like Spaulding even had a lawyer once AM was President-Sid was Alan's lawyer and defended Alan in the Brent corporate sabotage hearing that led to his breakup with Gilly. Though no way would Ross have come to work for AM.

It actually would've made sense for Ross to be the attorney at Lewis Oil around that time and would've put Van/Ross into regular contact when Dinah got to town. Van being Ross's boss during that period would've created some friction.

They had some point where Ross tells Blake she needs to get a job and she briefly was hired by Ed but I can't remember why that fell through.

Edited 16 hours ago16 hr by GL95

36 minutes ago, GL95 said:

Having Holly approach Vanessa on Blake's behalf about Dinah rather than Blake trying to get through to Vanessa could've been interesting. I feel like they had a pretty similar journey with their adult daughters. I could see them forging something of a bond out of that though they did a lot off erasure of Blake's past around that point.

Barbara Crampton's Mindy did say there was no way Billy could've been Roger's shooter because no way Billy would've missed haha

Barbara Crampton's Mindy is so weird because I actually think Barbara Crampton could do the more feisty/tough version of Mindy well given her other roles but instead seemed like she felt she needed to be a vapid version of Kimberly Simms or something, especially in those early days. I actually think once she wasn't saddled with Nick you could see her playing with that more, especially in the scenes with Rick.

I do remember Vanessa and Ross enlisting Holly's help in trying to stop Dinah from marrying Roger. A wonderful scene between Holly and Dinah about Roger ensued. Noting that, your idea about having Holly approach Vanessa re: Dinah/Ross/Blake is smart.

Re: Crampton. Her spin as Mindy was unfortunate. She simply wasn't Mindy - and the beating of the dead Mindy/Nick horse sure didn't help. However, Crampton was a good actress. Her best showing as Mindy I thought came when she learned Nick and Alex were ready to sacrifice Lewis Oil to keep Spaulding solvent. Crampton's acting in a particular episode- November 21 1994 - I thought was worthy of an Emmy nod. Excellent work, there. The last 10 minutes or so. It's in the Vault.

1 hour ago, GL95 said:

Ross had some financial issues after the takeover but then got hired on as the corporate lawyer when the Spauldings got it back. I can't remember what it was, but Ross had too much of being bossed around by Alexandra/felt he was being compromised increasingly and quit Spaulding sometime during the custody hearing time period IIRC. (I remember Ross taking a call that annoyed him from Alex while in court and quitting.). What's funny is it didn't seem like Spaulding even had a lawyer once AM was President-Sid was Alan's lawyer and defended Alan in the Brent corporate sabotage hearing that led to his breakup with Gilly. Though no way would Ross have come to work for AM.

It actually would've made sense for Ross to be the attorney at Lewis Oil around that time and would've put Van/Ross into regular contact when Dinah got to town. Van being Ross's boss during that period would've created some friction.

They had some point where Ross tells Blake she needs to get a job and she briefly was hired by Ed but I can't remember why that fell through.

Eve was re-employed at Cedars, but mainly in an administrative role, with light duty - ie, "consultative" responsibilities as an MD.

Ed learned of Blake/Ross' financial predicament, and asked Eve to hire Blake on in a quasi-admin role. She did so. Blake gave Eve endless grief because she wanted Ed and Eve apart. Eve got tired of Blake's crap and fired her. Timeframe? I don't remember. 1994.

Thanks for the info re: Ross and money. I now remember Ross telling Alex to take a hike!

Crompton's Mindy had the misfortune of starting in the middle of the Eve gaslighting/stalking plot and right before Jordan Clarke had to leave as Billy. I think had he been able to stay on as Billy, there could have been a lot of scenes re-establishing their bond.

There was one episode shortly after Dusay started as Alex where there was a confrontation scene where Mindy stated that it was time to get everything between them out on the table and resolve things once and for all. Curlee just wanted to go back to that well again and follow up writers wouldn't let Nick/Mindy end until the last few months of her stint as Mindy.

2 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

I took the conversation between Ross/Vanessa in that scene to mean that her interest was never truly with him.. that he was her back up and not her #1.

At this point, I do lean toward Holly/Ross becoming a thing down the line with the mentions by Vanessa, Johnny, etc. I wonder if the show was looking to do a Ross/Sonni/Holly/Roger situation since Roger/Sonni seemed to be something the writers were investing in.

Well, at this point, Van was trying to get Ross' attention...but I guess I get his point a little more now, that he'd need more time to trust that the second Billy crooks his finger she'd drop him, or that part of her interest in Ross is a reaction to realizing he's interest in Holly, which he isn't admitting to.

1 hour ago, Speed Racer said:

Agree re: Blake being a crisis manager...a position often taken on by public relations executives in the real world. A perfect role for a yet-to-be tested, newly reformed/domiciled Blake.

There was maybe a six-month period in either 1994 or 95 when Ross and Blake were lacking money, which I always found odd since both were capable of pulling in cash. Did Ross lose lawyer business/contracts in the wake of Roger/Jenna's takeover of Spaulding? Was that it?

Well, at the end of '92, he' was done being DA and gave up being Senator. I'm not sure if Roger actually put some kind of squeeze on him to punish him for being involved with Blake. But Ross was always bouncing between private practice and DA/Corporate work. And in '94-'95 there was still lingering hostility between Van and Ross over the custody trial, I'd imagine. Vanessa did not attend his wedding to Blake. So them working together while she ran Lewis would've been a no-go.

2 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Mindy's toughness seems to vary between actresses. I think you or someone else said Ann Hamilton's Mindy was a crack shot. Krista's Mindy likely would have kneed him in the balls. Barbara Crampton was so vapid...

There was a very weird scene of Ann Hamilton's Mindy skeet shooting, when Kimberly Simms' Mindy never acted like a girl who'd done anything more than shop.

It wouldn't have hurt if Jordan was still there to help Barbara Crampton in the role, but I just can't see it being more than a band-aid. Crampton just wasn't able to channel some inner "Princess" persona, if you know what I mean.

2 hours ago, GL95 said:

Having Holly approach Vanessa on Blake's behalf about Dinah rather than Blake trying to get through to Vanessa could've been interesting. I feel like they had a pretty similar journey with their adult daughters. I could see them forging something of a bond out of that though they did a lot off erasure of Blake's past around that point

The similarities between Vanessa/Holly and their relationships with their daughters is why I don't understand why Van wasn't more involved in Nursery Stalker story.

I'm sure GL would've loved to do a Holly/Roger/Sonni triangle (and maybe add in Van and Ross) if Michelle had stayed.