Y&R: Episodes discussion., Week of July 6

[Cashton]

i'd love Mary to be there too - but I don't know that she's needed just yet. i can already see how MJ is going to be redeemed. i have a pretty good track record of predicting where they're going to go so rather than spoil it for everyone, i'll just say this - Patty has a secret that will break everyone's heart when they find out who she is and what's happened to her.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

It is about taste, and I do like darker storylines, as long as I don't have to suspend too much disbelief and as long as too many characters are not being dumbed down to make these plots work, which is what I'm getting from the show now. I also don't like the seemingly constant retcons and constant victimization of women.

I miss variety in Y&R. I miss seeing different characters being front burner at a time, I miss the show finding a variety of ways to drive story.

But again, it's all in taste.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

No, I just wish the show didn't have a constant flow of psychos, crazies, and mentally unbalanced people driving its frontburner stories. Y&R didn't always rely on people like this to drive story.

I miss character struggling between choosing evil and good, and I'm sorry, but they're just not portraying that struggle for Mary Jane and Adam, at least not effectively.

Again, I perceive the show to be in over-saturated in this vein of storytelling. I believe soaps should offer something for everyone, not one particular tone or type of storytelling.

I don't even find these character complicated and nuanced. I find their motivations to be deeply glossed over and fumbled. They aren't exploring the human conditions of these characters effectively enough, IMO, it all seems so hallow and cartoon-ish.

[Y&RWorldTurner]

The amount of beats and things that have been miraculously dropped on this show lately and the lighting fast pace of the storylines don't make me hopeful for this, they make me very worried.

Especially knowing that the pace is going to get a lot faster soon, at least according to what Toups told us.

[DRW50]

I'm not sure if the show is very chameleon. Lily, Ashley, Katherine and Mackenzie are always good. Cane is generally good. Gloria and Jeffrey are usually stupid. Colleen is usually stupid. Sharon, even with the crazy things she has done this year, is always referred to as a good person by everyone but Phyllis. Everyone reassured her she had done nothing wrong. Nick, who strung two women along for much of the year, was praised for his goodness by none other than Jack, who had every reason to lash out at him. Jill is usually wrong and we are invited to look down on her. Victor sometimes makes mistakes but we are usually reminded that he means well and that those who cross him deserve to be punished. Kevin and those around him are good. Adam is totally bad. MJ is totally bad. There are some gray characters, like Chloe, Billy, and Phyllis, but the structure of storytelling, which is mostly about going from plot point to plot point, doesn't have room for gray. Usually gray moments occur when it's time to shock people, like Neil suddenly having sex with Tyra in his club.

One could argue Y&R has never been a chameleon show, and they are just following their own history. I guess that's up to us individually.

I was just reading about how Hope was going to have an abortion but she got in a car accident and her surviving unscathed convinced her she should keep the baby. It would be interesting if Adam suddenly found religion, and we saw him trying to rebuild his life. Bill Bell used to toy with religious stories, albeit less over time. I remember a strange but very well-acted scene where Cole taught Victoria how to pray. Not that it took. Perhaps that's why things keep falling on Victoria's head.

[Cashton]

i'll agree that the pacing is fast. S/l's get heated up and then dropped with no reference for a long time. The show's not perfect by any means, but i think they've done their job in showing Mary Jane and Adam's thoughts and motivations. Though the writers don't show them in the old way they used to. Back in the day, they used to repeat certain phrases over and over and truly put motivations in BOLD on the screen.

Now they don't. And perhaps they should, because people seem to not be able to figure out things that are clear as day to me. Perhaps the show has gotten too smart for it's own good. Cause you can name ANY storyline that you don't "get" and I can explain it.

[DRW50]

Well, one question I keep hearing fans ask is what happened to Ashley's fetus, and if she's still pregnant. I think that's one of the reasons Eileen Davidson addressed this in her interview with Nelson Branco.

Another question I hear all the time is new viewers asking the show to explain which Phillip is who and what. Then you have to type out a paragraph or two to explain Katherine's husband, his son with Jill, his son's son with Nina, and then people ask about the baby switch, was there actually a baby switch, what about Katherine's dreams and what about Amber's involvement.

I don't envy Y&R in trying to explain the 35 years of history, or tying up Katherine's part in the story to what happened with Phillip, but I think it does confuse some viewers.

[Cashton]

for the answer i just look at the definition of a physical miscarriage which is : Premature expulsion of a fetus from the uterus before 20 weeks.

it's not in Ashley. it's gone. I thank Y&R for not explaining what Adam did to the fetus as i don't think it's important AND THAT would be truly vile.

[Cashton]

what is a constant flow of baddies? Adam has only been truly bad for about a few months. MJ's big bad deed so far has been the recent poison kiss of Summer. i just don't get how the show is saturated with bad, despicable people.

[cara mia]

Yes, Cashton, SH is definitely an Emmy contender! If she can make it past the pre-nom. With Y&R's weird political nature backstage, she might be considered too junior in her tenure to get the pre-nom, which would suck. As far as I'm concerned, SH and Kitty should get the supporting actress slots!

MJ & Adam don't need to be redeemed *if* they fall in love with each other! They can be crazy and evil together. I got no love/feeling for NuAdam with Rafe or Heather. With MJ though? Match made in Hell (in a good way).

The HEROES on this show suck. That's the real problem. I don't feel sorry at all for Summer's loved ones who are suffering from MJ's crimes. I don't feel sorry for Ashley or Victor or Rafe or Heather or anyone else Adam is hurting except for poor Estella. I don't feel sorry for Daniel, Jana, Amber, Vicky, or anyone else that Deacon is tormenting. I need some heroes on this show, someone to care about.

IMO, the main reason the David Kimble and the Sheila Carter stories were so great was because they were tormenting people we loved. Who didn't root for Nina and Lauren to overcome those dastardly villains? I am truly sorry that TEB did not sign a contract with Y&R and that Lauren has been put on the shelf, because if MJ were obsessed with Michael and if Lauren were her victim (instead of those stupid whores in Nick's harem), I would love the MJ story 100 times more than I do now.

[lmfan]

The show isn't just written for your tastes. Maybe if you had miscarried a child, been pregnant or spent any time in stirrups you might understand that Ashley's fetus just disappearing and the fact her OB/GYN doctor is a molestor is disturbing to many. To many what happened to the fetus and Ashley after she had her miscarriage is important and can't just be ignored. That is why it is bothering people a month later.

And Ashley is a 50 yr old woman having a high risk pregnancy. She had to take a leave from her job and yet never seems to have regualar checkups or get sonograms. This story is so full of holes just so they can make their way to the inevitable baby switch in November. And by the way, if Sharon and Ashley are both due in November then they must have conceived in early Feb. Sharon slept with Nick then but didn't sleep with Jack until April. Now all of a sudden, these men can't read a calender and have forgotten how long a woman carries a child until birth. Swiss cheese writing.

You think because Adam said he didn't mean for Ashley to lose the baby excuses what he has done or somehow explains his motivations. That's crap and a cop out by the writers frankly. It is not consistant with his actions and continued manipulations. I have more sympathy for MJ because she is genuinely crazy and needs extensive mental care, but Adam is just evil and they just need to keep him evil and stop having him say a line every few weeks about how he never meant for Ashley to lose her baby to try to explain Adam's motivations and get us to sympathize with him.

You don't mind these types of stories, but many people are bothered by them and yet they keep happening. They need to write where there is a balance of darker stories but also romance and lighter stories and just because you like the darker characters doesn't mean the person who prefers a balance or even watches for romance or lighter stories isn't just as important of a viewer.

[DRW50]

Viewers saw that Ashley was bleeding and had obviously been hurt after she fell down the stairs, but they never fully explained the aftermath, which is one reason it's still out there and some still wonder what happened. I think they could have had a moment where Adam talked to himself about what had happened. It would have been vile, but not any more vile than having a doctor who molests his female patients working on Ashley.

[lmfan]

I agree they could have written MJ in as a former client or love interest of Michael's and made Lauren her victim and you know why it would have worked better? Yes, we care about these characters but they have established that this is a committed couple who values their marriage and so when someone from outside threatens it we would care. Can you imagine the great character intraction they could have played with that story?

With the quad, their relationships are such a joke that very few care what happens to any of them. And this idea that Lauren can't have a story because she is recurring is something I don't understand (but I agree many people give the same reason you do for the lack of Lauren stories or screentime). If MAB can write a major story for Nina and Philip III who are recurring characters who have been off the canvas for years if not decades, she could have written a similar story with a recurring character that has been on the Y&R canvas for nearly a decade and has been a character we have cared about for over 25 years.

I am not saying people don't care about Nina and Philip because they do, but people care just as much and even more about Michael and Lauren. But their type of marriage does not fit in with the way these writers view marriage.

[Cashton]

Ok - I've said it before - and for some reason it's always attribiuted to Mark, but I said it! - The writers do ask us to take many leaps of faith. For Ashley to fall down those staris and lose her baby and there not be any bruises is hard to swallow. She should have known something was wrong. But the way they played the story in its TOTALITY - is that Ashley has a history of going crazy over her babies. The flashback showing Ashley holding the blanket thinking it was Robert, sort of sealed the deal to me that she can go off the deep end and believe ANYTHING. did the writers continously say that? No. Bill Bell would have driven that point through with everyone saying it over and over and over. But this regime didn't. I personally like it cause I have a good memory.

I HATED seeing Ashley lose another baby. HATE IT. but I see where it's going and I'm highly interested and excited about seeing Ashley bond with this baby - who will prolly be Sharon's -- then the eventual tug-of-war when all is revealed. Maybe I'm more willing to go for the ride cause i like where it's going vs. those who don't like the ride and think it's "dreck".

But all this ill-will about a doctor who Adam just has a letter on whom we don't even know - that just seems like pulling straws. He didn't molest Ashley and he's going to be up the creek when all this comes out.

[Cashton]

Interesting points cara, tho with Sheila in particular she is WAY more popular in the beginning, than Lauren. lmfan - don't hate me! (lmfan says: Too late, bitch!)

i think the hero problem is that like a lot of people, myself included, think that the pacing is off. I think MAB bit off a bit more than she could chew storywise with all the vets and their vacations, then the MTS contract fiasco really derailed things, then the mega-blow of the franchise fee cut.

Sharon's decision though still irks me - i lied i guess when I said I could explain everything cause that's the one thing that ain't making any sense.

Phyllis on the other hand, it's always very hard to feel sorry for her. i don't know why, but I never do - hence i see what you mean with the whole not feeling sorry for people.

i do wish Michael were in this s/l so he could interact with MJ. i think they'd be an interesting match.

For me, I accept the limitations of the medium and just enjoy it and dissect it but I never get so weary as to heap sh!t all over it cause it's not sh!t - it's damn good soap.