Members cara mia Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 Cliff died in a tractor accident when Adam was a child. Even if he had abused him (which would be B.S.), it would have stopped a long time ago. I joke about a brain tumor, but the only plausible explanation for Adam is that is an evil bastard. The show can decide whether he's short-term like David Kimble or long-term like James Stenbeck, but at this point, any other read than "evil" won't fly, IMO. Mary Jane could probably be helped by a psychiatrist. Unlikely as it sounds now, she would probably make a good love interest for Victor (post-shrink). It won't happen but it would be great if Ashley AND Nikki rejected Victor and turned on him once the truth about Mary Jane came out. Victor being rejected by everyone he loves, including his family and Kay, would be satisfying television. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarkH Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 I love the way you think! The idea of Cliff abusing Adam behind the barn (Hope not knowing it) is already intriguing to me, but your idea of having Adam (to defend himself and his mother) causing the fatal tractor accident all those years ago...perfection!!! And, tracing it all to that childhood abuse and Victor's absence could begin the tale of Adam's redemption. He'd need time in a mental institution but that's cool. OLTL did wonders with that, IMO. If Victor had apologized to Summer in her COMA...so that Summer could REMEMBER THAT and question Victor on that at an opportune time in the future...that would be even more beautiful! I love love the way you think! I would also love it if they had used your idea about Sharon and the cookies! I mean, in the soap world, it could happen. But I think they want us to continue to believe Amber is in her early 20s, like Daniel. I disagree with you totally about Adam. Hannibal Lecter, as an example, became what he became due to early abuse and the horrors he witnessed. Done skillfully, Adam's twisted nature (which comes out when he needs to defend himself) could absolutely have its roots in his childhood. I'd totally consider that! I can't wait to hear Cashton's idea about what happened to Patty...but I'm already speculating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BadZoe Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 MarkH, I have always been most intrigued by the villains in shows and not the heroes. For the most part they are really just anti-heroes who through various life circumstances turned out the way they did. Bill Bell started to put in seeds of why Sheila hated her mother and the idea that there was some horrible deep down reason for the things she did, he just never followed through. But Sheila's motivation was always clear, she wanted to be loved and would do anything and stomp on anyone who got in her way. I loved her and also cared about Lauren because she wasn't written as an innocent victim. They were all complex characters and the story took years, and then was able to continue on B&B for years. I don't buy that Amber is anything less than 30. She was over 18 when she had the baby because she started as Rick and Bridget's baby sitter/chauffeur and they SORASSED Rick from 15 to 18 when they decided to have Amber and him together so she wouldn't come off as a molester. Why not write Amber as the older woman, or have them all in their dirty thirties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Y&RWorldTurner Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 Howe come Nikki and Amber haven't visited Katherine in the hospital yet? They're both on, and it doesn't seem like either of them know that their BFF is in the hospital, especially Nikki, who happens to be in that same hospital watching over Summer. At least Victor mentioned he wanted to visit Katherine to see how she was doing, what's Nikki and Amber's excuse? I know they're occupied with some other things, but still, shouldn't they have known or mention that this woman they claim to love so much is in the hospital recovering from a stroke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 I am selfishly saying I really liked Cliff and for that reason I would not want Cliff to be retconned as an abuser, because this also paints Hope in a negative light, and because I don't think Cliff would have done that. I could have gotten over my selfish reaction if they had done these flashbacks earlier on, but now I think it would be too tacked on, people would see it as the show trying to suddenly redeem or excuse him, or to send out bad messages about children of abuse. I think the time to introduce flashbacks of abuse would have been when Adam was being beaten up in prison. I think that is more of a correlation than Adam having sex with Rafe, because now if they are tied together it would just reinforce the beliefs of the many people who believe being sexually abused as a child means you will grow up to be homosexual or bisexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 I think they aren't focusing on this because Katherine's stroke doesn't seem to be something that will take up a long story point. I still wish they'd had her more seriously ill for a few more days, and used that as a reason for Phillip to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarkH Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 Yikes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted July 11, 2009 Members Share Posted July 11, 2009 I don't think that's true, but that line is still used with people who believe gays can change, that we've just got something in the head that can be fixed. They float the most ridiculous statistics to try to prove their point. I think a sexual abuse storyline could have been great drama if they hadn't brought in this stuff with Rafe. Since they have I think it would muddy the waters too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cara mia Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 Attitudes about homosexuality can be affected by entertainment and media. That said, this Rafe/Adam story -- if it has any impact -- would be a negative one, IMO. The cutting away from the kissing and Adam's being "desperate" enough to have gay sex make homosexuality seem like something to be ashamed of. Just because we're encouraged to feel sorry for P3 on the other side of town, that doesn't change the tone/tenor or the Rafe/Adam story. Also, if Adam were to "discover" he's secretly gay that would reaffirm the idea that sexuality is a choice and the people can change their preferences. Therefore if Adam can become gay by having sex with Rafe, why can't Rafe become straight by having sex with Colleen? The P3 story is more complicated but even that doesn't do much for the image of homosexuality in a positive way. What does this have to do with is important to homosexuals in America today? Gays want the right to get married, they want they right to adopt and raise families, they want to serve in the military, they want equality, they want to be mainstreamed. So what does MAB gives us? A straight guy pretending to be gay for evil reasons and a gay guy who left his wife and his son so he could be "free". If gays had equal rights to straights, this wouldn't be a big deal. But gays are second class citizens in so many ways. Maybe Maria Bell thinks she's a progressive because she's not as much of a fascist as her Republican brethren, but I am truly surprised at how backwards these storylines are. Of course, I admit that I am bitter that P4 is not gay, and it's made it very hard for me to appreciate what is when I consider what could have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DRW50 Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 I agree with most of what you said. The good thing about the Rafe/Adam story so far is that it's such a rushed, meaningless story with nonexistent characterizations that I don't think it will have a big impact. They got their shock value and that's what they wanted. I think Phillip III's story has some potential but I do hope they can eventually flesh out the premise of him trying to kill himself because he was gay. There was also all the other baggage which I'm sure they will delve into about his toxic relationships with the women in his life. I think that's the most interesting part of his return, and is why I somewhat regret them making him gay because that part just seemed added on. I never thought they were going to make a young, handsome leading man gay, so I wasn't disappointed, but it would be nice if eventually they could have more gay characters, people viewers can invest in. As of now they have been careful to avoid making viewers care about someone who is gay. It's more about homosexuality as a thing -- something to be shocked by, something to attempt suicide over. It fits the very dated world Y&R now exists in, although, this isn't just Y&R, this is how most TV and film operate. Most still don't see homosexuals as human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Juliajms Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 The quad has dragged out, but the pacing isn't slow. It's the worst of both worlds right now. The beats are playing very quickly, but the story never changes and that is one of the many reasons I hate the Quad. All the back and forth has happened at break neck speed. I can't even remember how many times Sharon moved in and out of the Abbott mansion. I think it was about 4 times in the course of 6 weeks. I can't take these people seriously when they are changing their mind so quickly. It really is reminding me of Nick/Brooke/Ridge, except that Y&R hasn't played the Quad for 10 years (yet). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphanguy74 Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 I think it does. Look at it this way: This Phillip III story is putting up a mirror to those with prejudice and bigoted attitudes, showing that the bigoted treatment of gays at large can drive people to do desperate things, things Phillip would have never done had he not felt that "shame" he talked about. I'm a lucky person in that I wasn't raised with that shame, but plenty of people are. I sincerely hope that Rafe is playing Adam, that would be delicious... but even if he isn't, when the blood is in the penis and not in the brain, even smart men do dumb things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lmfan Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 But isn't there a risk that people will not see Philip III as someone who was driven away because of prejudice and bigoted attitudes but because he was and continues to be a coward? His family didn't know he was gay so they never had a chance to react to his homosexuality. He didn't give them a chance. He bolted. And then he comes back and acts like the pressure they put on him forced him to deceive them by not only faking his death, but sending an imposter to take his place. He seems to have little regret and has he mentioned his son, other than using the cop out that he would have resented the baby for forcing him to lead an untrue life? Sure I could buy that when Philip was 19, but at some point you need to grow up and face your responsibilities. Philip III still hasn't asked about his son, who he not only abondoned but tried to steal his birthright from him when he sent Cane back as Philip III. I think Philip's cowardice will overshadow the important issue of his homosexuality unless written very well and Philip III starts taking more responsibiliy for his actions. I do think MAB probably wants people to respond to Philip like your are, but I wonder if more people see Philip III like I do. To me his homosexuality does not excuse what he did to his son and family for over two decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Juliajms Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 I certainly think so. I know some people hate the word "redeem", but there is no other word for it. At some point Phillip will have to be redeemed. No one likes a coward, especially not when it involves abandoning a child. I don't think it would be that hard to turn Phillip around assuming that's what MAB decides to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MarkH Posted July 12, 2009 Members Share Posted July 12, 2009 What makes the P3 arc hard to take is that Kay, herself a near-lesbian, would not have judged P3 on that basis. Brenda Dickson was a gay icon, so her character seems more likely to have been delighted that her son was "fabulous". I don't know about Jess' Jill, but knowing how tolerant and loving Jess is...I have a hard time seeing Jess' Jill as a homophobe. Nina, back in the day, would have been threatened and not accepting. But that was more about losing the Chancellor tie than P3. Any woman or man would have brought that out in her. And seeing today's Nina...accepting, forthright...one sees that over the long haul it would not have been a big deal. My point is that P3 got it all wrapped in his head that being gay was big deal. But, of course, it wasn't. He wasted 20 years with his loved ones for no good reason. THE ONLY angle to make this story palatable...and I don't think this is what they were going for...is for P3 to realize he was wrong...he should have had the courage to come out...and to try to make amends. Could this really be what they were going for? Is this really a PSA saying "Coming out is not so bad? Do it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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