:rolleyes:

Which invalidates your previous statement & your current argument.

I'm sorry, I stand corrected. I rounded the years in my first post, to make an even decade, when it should have read 1973-1982, instead of 1973-1983. Next time I'll make sure it's precise. Makes a big difference, doesn't it? I guess you couldn't come up with a black character in the 1973-82 time peiod, could you? Didn't think so.

I guess you couldn't come up with a black character in the 1973-82 time peiod, could you? Didn't think so.

That was an assumption you made.

I am trying to understand the formal definition of "mammy" here.

So, wikipedia says this:

The Mammy archetype is the portrayal within a narrative framework or other imagery of a domestic servant of African descent, generally good-natured, often overweight, and loud.

The word "mammy" is a variant of "mother," formerly common in North America but now rarely used and typically considered an ethnic slur.

A "wet-mammy" or "wet-nurse" was a term used for a female domestic servant that acted as a nanny and was also assigned the duty to breast feed the child in lieu of the child's mother, perhaps due to the death of the mother in childbirth, social or cultural pressures, or the mother's concern of disfigurement of the breasts due to nursing.

A number of variations and usage of the mammy character became prominent in pop culture during the pre-civil rights period. One of the most notable examples is Aunt Jemima, a mascot for Quaker Oats's Aunt Jemima brand pancakes, pancake flour and mixes, and syrup. In recent years, the packaging has been redesigned to replace the mammy image with a more contemporary housewife image.

arious "Mammy" characters would appear in radio and TV shows. One prominent example was the radio and later short-lived TV show Beulah, which featured a black maid named Beulah who helped solve a white family's problems.

So, for the debate to be productive, individuals would express the ways in which Mamie is -- and is not -- similar to the above discussion.

====

I think the early history of African American character integration on Y&R is undeniably problematic.

Jazz Jackson started out as a thug, working with Tony DiSalvo. He turned into a good guy when he worked with Paul and Andy. He then got his brother, Tyrone, for the controversial whiteface/Mr. Anthony storyline. I do not remember how Jazz disappeared, but he seems to have eventually fizzled.

Amy Lewis and Commander Lewis were intriguing, but the Commander (a widowed father, as I recall) was never properly written for, despite being played by the amazing Brock Peters. Again, my sense is that the character eventually just fizzled away.

Amy was one of my favorite young female characters in the 80s...despite the fact that she was seldom written for. She could have been the STAR of that show. Eventually, she preceded Lynn "Yes Boss" Bassett as Paul's secretary. She too, it seems to me, faded away.

Carl Williams also had the most intriguing, well played partner, Selena, played by Fay Hauser. She too had the range to have made her a leading front burner character. But she seemed to be dragged out for mysteries (kind of like Gil is now...albeit with more of a presence), and eventually fizzled away.

Then we had the gangster "Kong". Was he one of Mr. Anthony's thugs? Later we learned that he was really "Nathan"...and Nathan's life of crime was premised, in part, in his illiteracy. It was regrettable with all the low-SES white characters (e.g., Dorothy and Wayne Stevens, Ron Becker) that they reserved illiteracy for their African American character.

Amy discovered Kong's illiteracy, taught him to read, and that was eventually his path to serving as one of Paul's associates.

Aunt Mamie has been discussed. I actually thought they tried hard to show that the Abbott's really loved her, and that she had played a surrogate mother role...but the bottom line was that she was the maid. She didn't eat with the family, she served at functions. That was fine...Esther does the same...but it wasn't necessarily balanced.

Mamie, of course, ended up being the launching pad on which her nieces Olivia, and later Dru, were introduced. Dru, of course, was introduced as a homeless runaway and petty thief...and again illiterate. Nathan "paid it forward" by teaching her to read...but now we had TWO illiterates on this show...both African American.

I would say, then, that the whole history of the treatment of African Americans on this show prior to the introduction of Olivia, Dru and Neil was pretty...spotty. The good news was that there was a presence. The bad news was that the presence was mostly servants/illiterates/thugs. Selena/Frank Lewis/Amy were welcome counterpoints.

It also is worth mentioning that Keesha (whose ethnicity changed...when Jennifer Gatti took over the role, did she become italian or hispanic??) started out as multi-racial (possibly including African American), and she is the character (along with Cricket's mom) whom they saddled with AIDS. Malcolm married her. Let's not forget that Keesha slept with Nathan (killing his marriage)...and that before Nathan died he had abducted his son.

Malcolm, for all of Shemar's popularity, never really got a major story IMO. (Did he? I am not remembering one). He had sex with Dru when she was under the influence of cold medicines. Did he ever have a strong, true front burner tale with lasting implications for the canvas? There was that singer, Callie (?) whom he was involved with (again, as I recall, hiding out from a Detroit thug boyfriend)...the first actress perished and was replaced by Selena Goines. Then (names elude me) there was that woman Neil and Malcolm were fighting over, leading to a distraught Malcolm to "perish" over a bridge in Africa.

We have the fact that even on his last return, Malcolm just sort of fizzled out.

We have Yolanda as a drug-addicted mess. We have Devon as a street-kid/runaway.

There is no denying that Y&R has had a number of African American performers over the years -- many strong -- but I wouldn't say Y&R has kept the picture "balanced" There has been a definite emphasis on criminals and persons starting at lower levels on the opportunity ladder.

==

I just WISH Y&R would commit to writing for persons of color, in a way in which they are fully participating members of the canvas, front burner, integrated, with a mix of heroes and villiains and varying socioeconomic statuses. I realize Y&R is not unique in this failing.

Edited May 31, 200916 yr by MarkH

Not that it was much to brag on but Y&R also had a French character early on - Pierre Roulland played by Robert Clary.

Not that it was much to brag on but Y&R also had a French character early on - Pierre Roulland played by Robert Clary.

Bill Bell brought Clary to all three of his shows (Y&R, Days, B&. I wonder why?

Mamie was a stereotypical Mammy character. It was embarrassing as hell. She served the Abbotts and acted as a sounding board for their problems. As time passed, they expanded her role, but she never got John. Mamie was topped by the "ignorant can't read talking ebonics street wise kid" Dru showed up and the stereotype was out of control. I hated Dru with a passion for that. Neil would not give her a second look until she was cleaned up and can't say that I blamed him. I give Y&R credit for having black characters consistently, but they haven't done right by them.

That was an assumption you made.

No, it is a fact... you couldn't come up with a black character from the 70's, cause there WEREN'T ANY.

It is an interesting question, why Rowell isn't showing up anywhere.

Not that interesting. She's IMPOSSIBLE TO WORK WITH.

It's not a sexism thing, it's not a race thing, it's not anything other than the fact that production-wise? She's more difficult than she's worth. And most people int he industry are well aware of it.

Mamie was a stereotypical Mammy character. It was embarrassing as hell. She served the Abbotts and acted as a sounding board for their problems. As time passed, they expanded her role, but she never got John. Mamie was topped by the "ignorant can't read talking ebonics street wise kid" Dru showed up and the stereotype was out of control. I hated Dru with a passion for that. Neil would not give her a second look until she was cleaned up and can't say that I blamed him. I give Y&R credit for having black characters consistently, but they haven't done right by them.

Neil was always embarrassed by her. I remember the Newman's New Years' party, where Neil was going to take Dru, and he showed up at the Abbott mansion and told her to change, that her dress was not appropriate. It was a glittered mini-dress... mid thigh length, in a bright chartreuse color. the color was a BIT loud, but the dress was fine, appropriate for NEW YEARS EVE, and fit her personality. Instead, Neil wanted her in black velvet and pearls... and that's what he got (That

MOFO just KNEW she would wear something not right, he brought that dress WITH HIM). But when the party started, Ashley walked in wearing almost the SAME DRESS that Dru originally had on, except the hem was 2 inches longer MAX, and it was silver. By this time, Dru was presentable to polite society, but Neil bristled at ANY colorful comment she might have made, even after Victor EXPRESSELY told him not to change her, he thought she was a breath of fresh air.

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by alphanguy74

Neil was always embarrassed by her. I remember the Newman's New Years' party, where Neil was going to take Dru, and he showed up at the Abbott mansion and told her to change, that her dress was not appropriate. It was a glittered mini-dress... mid thigh length, in a bright chartreuse color. the color was a BIT loud, but the dress was fine, appropriate for NEW YEARS EVE, and fit her personality. Instead, Neil wanted her in black velvet and pearls... and that's what he got (That

MOFO just KNEW she would wear something not right, he brought that dress WITH HIM). But when the party started, Ashley walked in wearing almost the SAME DRESS that Dru originally had on, except the hem was 2 inches longer MAX, and it was silver. By this time, Dru was presentable to polite society, but Neil bristled at ANY colorful comment she might have made, even after Victor EXPRESSELY told him not to change her, he thought she was a breath of fresh air.

Oh yes. Honestly, this is when I started hating Neil. I mean, he DIVORCED her because she refused to give up a career he didn't like (modeling).

Ugh.

With Neil's sanctimoniousness, inflexibility, hypocrisy, addictive tendencies, chauvinism...I really feel maybe the route to go is to finally let him be the villain he is. Give him a Scarlett O'Hara moment ("I'll never be dissed again"), and then let him be a bastard. I honestly think that would work. Maybe he's great with his family, but he's learned at Victor's right hand...and he's RUTHLESS in business.

Then, show Tyra for what she is (an acquisitive social climber who engineered her current situation with Neil).

Now we have Macbeth and his lady. And THAT is worth watching.

you couldn't come up with a black character from the 70's, cause there WEREN'T ANY.

YOU were talking about the 70's.

NOBODY else.

Period.

Mamie was a stereotypical Mammy character.

The hell she was.

She served the Abbotts and acted as a sounding board for their problems.

Being a maid is NOT the same as being a Mammy.

Equating the two is insulting.

she never got John.

She did.

But the VIEWERS had the problem so TPTB backed off.

Mamie was topped by the "ignorant can't read talking ebonics street wise kid"

"Ebonics" is a stereotype now?

Neil would not give her a second look until she was cleaned up and can't say that I blamed him.

Eh.

Neil fell in love with her AS SHE WAS.

That was the point.

I give Y&R credit for having black characters consistently, but they haven't done right by them.

Apparently all Black characters must be like Christel's Lily.

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by DeeeDee

She's IMPOSSIBLE TO WORK WITH.

Eh. Not at all.

it's not a race thing

It's NEVER a race thing when race is involved.

Neil was always embarrassed by her.

Their relationship wasn't much different than Victor/Nikki's or John/Jill.

Edited June 1, 200916 yr by DeeeDee

Bill Bell brought Clary to all three of his shows (Y&R, Days, B&. I wonder why?

I don't know for sure. I think I remember reading that Bill Hayes helped him get the job at Days. But I may be wrong about that. I was thinking of their friendship offscreen or something.

I guess Bell liked him after that becasue as you said he acted on all 3 of this shows since the 70's.