On 6/28/2024 at 3:38 AM, DRW50 said:

I was watching one of the Paley recordings Eddie Drueding has up, which near the end has Vic and Carole. Hopefully more will show up.

Finally got around to watching Vic convene his office meeting. His affect was certainly more natural than Reginald's stiff pomposity. Reading the synopses, Carol is definitely a conniving double-dealing hussy, but there are also hints that maybe Robert is not that competent. Is Carol pushed out to make room for villainous Olive?

20 hours ago, DRW50 said:

@vetsoapfan @Mona Kane Croft Another Jacqueline Courtney scene (in her last weeks before her exit, presumably). A nice little family moment. 

Even here you can see Hugh Marlowe struggling with his lines a bit.

 

This must be right before one of the scenes in the Paley clips I just watched since here Marianne is seeking advice about concealing from John the time she persuaded Chris to take her for a drive instead of attending a dance with his friends, and there John and Pat are arguing about how to react to it. 

Alice and Marianne have such masses of golden hair I can't stop staring.

1 hour ago, Xanthe said:

Finally got around to watching Vic convene his office meeting. His affect was certainly more natural than Reginald's stiff pomposity. Reading the synopses, Carol is definitely a conniving double-dealing hussy, but there are also hints that maybe Robert is not that competent. Is Carol pushed out to make room for villainous Olive?

Carol is one of those characters I wish I could see much more of as it's difficult to get a read on her when she just pops up to be unpleasant at Frame Enterprises. In terms of her motivations and romantic relationships, at times she seems to be written more as a male character than the traditional female character on soaps. I wonder what plans Lemay would have had for her if Jeanne Lange had wanted to stay, as he singled her out as one of the cast members he was most upset to lose. 

Thanks for mentioning more of the Paley clips as I don't think I've watched those yet. 

On 7/4/2024 at 6:54 PM, Mona Kane Croft said:

I think whether certain families are deeply baked has less to do with how much time has passed, and more to do with how the audience feels about them.  And the audience did love the Matthews family -- especially after Agnes Nixon joined the show and made the writing more compelling and more deeply woven than earlier writers.  Not to mention, the severe ratings decline almost literally coincided with the decline of the Matthews family.  There were obviously multiple reasons for the ratings decline, but there certainly was a correlation between lower ratings and fewer Matthews. Correlation does not necessarily mean causation, but still . . .

And the exits of Bill, Missy, Lee, etc. are not particularly germane to the argument, because even the most ardent soap fans have no expectation that every single member of the core family will remain on the show forever.  Some die, some move away, some return, while others are never mentioned again. All while the core family maintains its position as the center of the drama.

 I personally believe Bill Bell's ability to successfully introduce an almost entirely new cast of characters in the early-1980s had everything to do with him being the creator of the show.  And to a slightly lesser degree, his talent as a writer.  Had ANY other head-writer tried the same thing at Y&R, I feel certain the ratings would have tanked almost immediately.  Of course, this is just my opinion.  

Not value them?  They held most of them in contempt. They seemed to expect that popular soap opera actors would operate with little-to-no ego, while both Rauch and Lemay were almost completely driven by ego.  That was a disaster waiting to happen.

But I need to make clear -- I loved Lemay's character driven style. He knew how to write believable people and believable scenes and relationships.   

I do agree with you on this point.  If Lemay (or any later head-writers) found a particular member of the Matthews family boring, I'm sure the audience would have supported giving that character a rest, while bringing back other members of the extended clan.  Or even recasts, in some cases.  As long as the matriarch and patriarch plus one or two of their kids remain, the rest of the family can rotate in and out as the years pass.  Of course, the writing needs to be compelling as well.   

 

Again, I agree.  The revolving door of actors/characters during Lemay's run was unprecedented, and it did harm to the show.  I've joked many times that Lemay's favorite line of dialogue was, "I'm leaving Bay City."

In 1979-80, Tom King made a horrible mistake by writing off so many of Lemay's characters.  King seemed to have learned from Lemay, how to write for Lemay's characters. So he did well with Rachel, Iris, Mac, Ada, Dennis, and to a lesser degree Pat, Jamie, and Clarice.  But the characters Tom King created were almost universally a poor-fit for Another World. Most were embarrassingly bad, really.  So especially with Iris on her way out, King should have maintained as many of Lemay's characters as possible and played to his own strengths. And his own strength was writing for Lemay's characters.    

Catching up on this thread, I was thinking of posting all of these exact same sentiments, but you did it for me. You've saved me a lot of wear and tear on my typing fingers.

All this to say: I agree with everything you wrote in this post.👍

8 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Catching up on this thread, I was thinking of posting all of these exact same sentiments, but you did it for me. You've saved me a lot of wear and tear on my typing fingers.

All this to say: I agree with everything you wrote in this post.👍

Well thank you, vetsoapfan.  I'm glad to know we agree on so many details regarding AW.    

On 7/4/2024 at 7:17 PM, Mona Kane Croft said:

Your initial question is intriguing, and I really don't know the answer. As I was not watching AW regularly during that time.  But I will speculate -- based on the viewers' reaction to Rachel's disclosure to Alice at the engagement party -- that the audience was NOT previously aware that Rachel's baby was fathered by Steve Frame.  I think it is likely the audience found out at the exact same time a Alice got the news.   Sounds like some great drama to me!!  I suppose that scene is the holy-grail of Another World.  

Being quite familiar in the realm of soaps, and how these things work out, I could see the plot coming from a mile away. I just knew Rachel would end up having Steve's baby.🙃

On 7/4/2024 at 11:34 PM, mikeaw1978 said:

Well, once Alice told Jim the true reason that she broke off her engagement to Steve, Jim then told Mary.

The scene in which Jim tells the truth about the baby to Mary is still seared in my memory. Loving, maternal Mary flew into an uncharacteristic rage and shrieked, "I...HATE...HER! I hate her!" We were used to Audra Lindley's Liz screaming at everybody, but not Mary Matthews. It was chilling to see her go berserk (chilling, but understandable)

.

The other surprise that I felt when reading the 1969-1972 synopsis (I wanted to read through to the recasting(s) of Rachel) was how quickly Missy returned to Bay City after leaving for California. 

This period pre-dates my consciousness, but when I've read the novelizations and the anniversary book, I had always assumed that Missy was gone for a few years, rather than just a few months. 

7 minutes ago, vetsoapfan said:

Being quite familiar in the realm of soaps, and how these things work out, I could see the plot coming from a mile away. I just knew Rachel would end up having Steve's baby

Yes, but the build up was quite fun.  I was highly entertained by all the business about planning the engagement.  And the multiple tales that were interwoven into that one event.  

On 7/5/2024 at 6:26 PM, DRW50 said:

I do wonder how fans at the time felt about the material for Alice. Unlike Pat, who is more slowly woven into a world of finance, and more gradually put into relationships, Alice, who had mostly just loved Steve for nearly a decade, was all over the place - marrying again, getting engaged to Willis in spite of presumably knowing of some heinous deeds from him (did she know what he did to Sharlene?), taking a large role in running Steve's company, and finally, deciding to marry her cousin's estranged husband after a period of months. This all feels very plot-driven - I think the material that most feels like it could have been character based was her being drawn to Willis, but that isn't really the same without Courtney or John Fitzpatrick (who so resembled George Reinholt - I cannot see Leon Russom as Steve's suffering younger brother) in the roles. For all of Lemay's disdain for Courtney, it doesn't seem like he put a great deal of care into writing for Alice even after she left.

After Courtney left, Alice behaved like she was intellectually limited, IMHO. She had already been very wary of Willis, and then to suddenly fall in love with him? Marrying Ray Gordon whom she had not known for very long? Going after her cousin's ex? None of this was in character, and came off as a puppet being pushed around from story point to story point, to fit into absurd plots.

I cringed to see Alice showing up at Ada's back door, meeting Rachel in the kitchen, and then sitting down to have soup with her. WTF? These women hated each other. Why would Alice cheerfully agree to eat with her? GMAFB.😑

On 7/6/2024 at 4:30 PM, Mona Kane Croft said:

Something folks who were not watching might not realize is that Susan Harney's Alice got a hell of a lot of screen time. Yes, upon Courtney's firing, Vicky Wyndham did become AW's female romantic lead.  But Alice just moved down one notch really, to the show's second female romantic lead.  So that's not bad at all for a recast.  Lemay kept Alice very busy and the show was quite focused on Alice, even though Rachel had now become AW's primary focus.

I was surprised Harney was listed so close to the top of the cast crawl. Victoria Wyndham was then first, of course. I can't recall right now if Harney was the second or the third highest-ranked actress (perhaps Beverly Penberthy was above her), but she should have been further down the list, behind other vets.

On 7/6/2024 at 4:30 PM, Mona Kane Croft said:

 

Having watched AW almost daily from 1972 until the early-80s, I've wondered why the audience (including myself) accepted Harney as Alice as easily as we did -- despite her acting challenges.

The negative reaction to Harney, voiced by viewers in fan magazines, was widespread. I'm sure there were members of the audience who accepted her, and for the reasons you specified, but a vocal legion of fans did not. Even Harding Lemay admitted that despite continued focus on the character, Alice never again enjoyed the popularity she had attained with Courtney in the part. Lemay even acknowledged that JC's presence on OLTL may have contributed to that series' steady climb in the ratings.

On 7/6/2024 at 4:30 PM, Mona Kane Croft said:

Of course we knew very little of the situation in the studio, or the reasons behind the other characters' exits.  And we certainly had none of the details we would discover a few years later in Lemay's book.  But most of the fans were aware that Dwyer and Reinholt had been fired.

A few months after the cast massacre, the entire story was reported upon, in depth, in the daytime press. Jacquie Courtney wrote an article, herself, explaining her side of the story. Again, readers of the magazines were enraged.

 

On 7/6/2024 at 7:57 PM, DRW50 said:

@vetsoapfan @Mona Kane Croft Another Jacqueline Courtney scene (in her last weeks before her exit, presumably). A nice little family moment. 

Even here you can see Hugh Marlowe struggling with his lines a bit.

 

This is a lovely scene; the type that soaps used to do so well, but which we rarely see any more. It feels like we were watching a quiet moment play out with real family members.

Jacquie Courtney was radiant. Her subtle performance added depth to the scene.

And while Hugh Marlowe stumbled a bit with his dialogue, I didn't mind. In real life, most of us get tongue-tied from time to time. 

What a treat Ariana Muenker's clips are!

Edited July 8, 20241 yr by vetsoapfan

1 hour ago, vetsoapfan said:

I cringed to see Alice showing up at Ada's back door, meeting Rachel in the kitchen, and then sitting down to have soup with her. WTF? These women hated each other. Why would Alice cheerfully agree to eat with her? GMAFB.😑

That's odd to imagine. I guess it felt more natural when they began feuding again in the early '80s, although I'm sorry it had to be over men again. I might have had Rachel become a mentor to Sally, which would upset Alice.

I don't mind the stumbles either, it just reminded me of what you mentioned of his having problems with his lines even though Lemay blamed Dwyer.

I agree we need those types of family moments much more often. At least GH has had some with Lois lately, from a few clips I've seen.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Carol is one of those characters I wish I could see much more of as it's difficult to get a read on her when she just pops up to be unpleasant at Frame Enterprises. In terms of her motivations and romantic relationships, at times she seems to be written more as a male character than the traditional female character on soaps. I wonder what plans Lemay would have had for her if Jeanne Lange had wanted to stay, as he singled her out as one of the cast members he was most upset to lose. 

Thanks for mentioning more of the Paley clips as I don't think I've watched those yet. 

It seems to me that Lemay replaced Carole with Gwen... since Carole and Angie were both fighting for Willis in 1975/6... and eventually once it appeared that Alice wasn't going to work in that spot, Gwen was placed in that spot.

1 hour ago, Soaplovers said:

It seems to me that Lemay replaced Carole with Gwen... since Carole and Angie were both fighting for Willis in 1975/6... and eventually once it appeared that Alice wasn't going to work in that spot, Gwen was placed in that spot.

That makes sense. Like Carole, Gwen also seemed to have a difficult relationship with her mother (who seems like a complete horror). Dorothy Lyman is such a different actress to Jeanne Lange but maybe she is more suited to Leon Russom.

Edited July 8, 20241 yr by DRW50

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

That's odd to imagine. I guess it felt more natural when they began feuding again in the early '80s, although I'm sorry it had to be over men again. I might have had Rachel become a mentor to Sally, which would upset Alice.

It was just so weird, so out-of-character, and made Alice look idiotic.

Having Rachel mentor Sally would have been a realistic and effective way to keep the flames of conflict alight.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I don't mind the stumbles either, it just reminded me of what you mentioned of his having problems with his lines even though Lemay blamed Dwyer.

Yes, there were times when Marlowe stumbled his way through scenes, either fumbling his lines or forgetting them all together. When it was extensive and noticeable, it was painful to watch. Little glitches like in this scene were no big deal to me. Issues with dialogue aside, I did find the actor to be warm and generally likeable, although my favorite Jim Matthews was Sheppard Strudwick.

7 hours ago, DRW50 said:

I agree we need those types of family moments much more often. At least GH has had some with Lois lately, from a few clips I've seen.

I wonder if that was Mulcahey's influence.

In my forum I have a thread where people can name scenes they would like to see. Often, then, someone else may know just where that is, and post it. 

One of my personal druthers was to see this actress/writer portray Donna Love, temp. Today someone posted it! 

https://rumble.com/v55vcvy-another-world-january-3-1991-sofia-landon-geier-as-donna-love.html?fbclid=IwY2xjawD47A1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHRPQbwkKO7TbXKrIEHbMy1THVaF1sd4d527b5b0PejMLBLHq03ojCgRXTw_aem_ZeBrE3n5k735a0NnYQe-TA

18 hours ago, DRW50 said:

Thanks for mentioning more of the Paley clips as I don't think I've watched those yet. 

Thanks for posting the one with Vic here. 

The scene at the beginning with Rachel refusing to come back to Mac is of course very difficult to reconcile with the later retcon that Mac believes Iris is not his biological daughter. He very freely announces that he is done with Iris after she went too far to break him and Rachel up and when Rachel kind of excuses Iris' behaviour on the grounds that she loves Mac, he asserts that Iris is like her mother and loves no one but herself. With their relationship at rock bottom it feels a bit unlikely that he wouldn't have brought up the paternity/maternity situation as a factor. But of course in those days no one expected viewers to be able to refer back to such details, certainly not easily.