11 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Sorry, I really didn't mean to side-rail the conversation.  My major point was that one of the major reasons Marley became a secondary character to Vicky was that Marley was a traditional ingenue at a time when that type of character was becoming unappealing to the writers, pretty much across the board in the genre.   

I would agree with that. 

I'd also say Vicky took over many of Marley's traits in ingenue status. 

I think Vicky remained characteristically Vicky during the Ryan romance, because the sibling rivalry mirrored her own backstory with Marley and the Kirkland switch was partially motivated by her own upbringing.  But, as the damsel-in-distress during the Shane/Bobby story, she was indistinguishable from Marley.

13 minutes ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

True, but even she didn't last long enough to become what I would call a successful long-term ingenue.   

Sorry, I really didn't mean to side-rail the conversation.  My major point was that one of the major reasons Marley became a secondary character to Vicky was that Marley was a traditional ingenue at a time when that type of character was becoming unappealing to the writers, pretty much across the board in the genre.   

I'm not rising to debate the dilemma of ingenues in general, just to speak specifically to the Love/Hudson twins. And, as soon as Anne Heche came on as Vicky first, which I do not think was some anti-ingenue plot, but Marley was immediately pushed back because Vicky, yes, bad girl was 1. more interesting to everyone and 2. the person that women that age identified with to the nth degree! Another good girl who was also immediately pushed back was Lisa. Lisa had no chance from the first moment Anne Heche became Victoria! I think part of it was the writing & bad boys had been more interesting already for many years so here came bad girls chance but I think another part of it was Anne! She was so talented, so gifted, and so raw with such huge charisma & chemistry with everyone & everything. 

I also agree with @Soaplover's premise that it is a shame that writers were never inspired to create more stories from Marley perspective about her relationship with Donna.  I guess this was touched upon in later years when Marley had a breakdown over her resentment toward Vicky.  But, Donna and Michael definitely had a favorite twin. 

Furthermore, I felt Marley's relationship with Jamie did the character no favors.  Not only was he one of Vicky's cast-offs who later hooked with her twin, but the most romantic part of their relationship occurred off-screen in Europe!

I would argue what was missing was a career so that she could be in stories that didn't revolve around romance.  Buy a fertility clinic, become a lawyer, or teach literature, she needed a purpose.

Edited November 26, 20232 yr by j swift

1 hour ago, Mona Kane Croft said:

Robin -- I probably would agree she is/was a long term ingenue.  She was on GH for many years and never permanently lost a man to a bad-girl (at least not that I recall). And she never turned bad or went crazy.  So let's add Robin to the list.

Robin is an aberration. Always, in every way. And it was not very much a good girl act to have unprotected sex with a hard-living street kid who used drugs. 

59 minutes ago, j swift said:

They may not have lasted as long, but Brett, Lisa, Kelsey, and Sofia were all good girl ingénues young adult leads with contemporary stories created after 1985.

Brett and Kelsey might be too assertive to be true ingenues. Jenna was another good girl and I thought that both she and Sofia were more interesting than they were sometimes given credit for being. Cheryl was very innocent and prettier than the character was interesting. What about Josie?

 

3 hours ago, Soaplovers said:

Vicky was easy to write so writers like Swajeski, Sloane, etc tended to write for her and use Marley as a talk to for Vicky (except for the 1991/2 period where Marley had a story arc that didn't involve Vicky so much).

And logistically it took more effort to really have Marley and Vicky talk, and a fair amount of the time there were reasons why Vicky could not confide in Marley, so she was more likely to talk to Bridget. Maybe Marley was really more of a foil to Vicky -- it looks like she returned to Bay City briefly in early 1988 so that Vicky could impersonate her once or twice, and to add colour to Jake's availability for Vicky; then later in the year at basically the same time Vicky found out she was pregnant Marley returned and revealed that she was having fertility issues. Even Jake raping Marley seemed more driven by the need to give Vicky her reaction moment.

9 hours ago, Xanthe said:

What about Josie?

The original version of Josie was definitely written as a traditional ingenue.  But again, as popular as she may have been with the existing audience, Josie wasn't on the show very long.  So she's just one of many tried and failed attempts on the various soaps to introduce that archetype post mid-80s.  Thankfully, Josie's exit didn't involve her becoming a villain or going crazy.  She was written off with most of the character's dignity in tact, allowing her return years later. But the later version of Josie was older, hardened by experience, and by no means naive. So the later Josie had out grown ingenue status.  

 

Re: Justine's resemblance to Rachel, IIRC, Justine had surgery to further enhance it. Didn't she also have telltale scars on her wrists from a suicide attempt? I was not a regular viewer but I remember catching some of these scenes when they aired. I also remember they did quite a few flashbacks with another actress playing younger Justine.

10 minutes ago, SFK said:

Re: Justine's resemblance to Rachel, IIRC, Justine had surgery to further enhance it. Didn't she also have telltale scars on her wrists from a suicide attempt?

Yes.  IIRC, Carl noticed the scars while laying in bed with "Rachel" and realized she was Justine.

I remember so little of Justine. It started off well. Its end was very bad. Her driving that truck. Her talking while she was bricking up Vicky in the wall. 

On 11/26/2023 at 8:01 AM, Mona Kane Croft said:

The original version of Josie was definitely written as a traditional ingenue.  

On 11/26/2023 at 8:01 AM, Mona Kane Croft said:

But the later version of Josie was older, hardened by experience, and by no means naive. So the later Josie had out grown ingenue status.

 

High school senior/college freshman Josie was so different from adult Josie that it's easy to forget they were the same person! Young Josie was more of a Keri Russell (Felicity) or Rebecca Gayheart (Beverly Hills, 90210) type. She morphed from this sweet, Miss Teen USA sort to a no- nonsense cop. She wasn't as harsh as Margo Hughes on ATWT, but she was getting there. Adult Josie (Amy Carlson) did have amazing chemistry with Gary (Timothy Gibbs), though!

1 hour ago, China Jones said:

High school senior/college freshman Josie was so different from adult Josie that it's easy to forget they were the same person! Young Josie was more of a Keri Russell (Felicity) or Rebecca Gayheart (Beverly Hills, 90210) type. She morphed from this sweet, Miss Teen USA sort to a no- nonsense cop. She wasn't as harsh as Margo Hughes on ATWT, but she was getting there. Adult Josie (Amy Carlson) did have amazing chemistry with Gary (Timothy Gibbs), though!

I wonder if a HW other than Lemay would have continued on with the character of Cheryl instead of introducing the new character of Josie. Bringing back Sharlene and connecting Josie to the Matthews family was a wonderful idea but I would not have minded well-handled McKinnons in town as well. I'm not sure Kevin Anderson did anything Ben could not have done either.

Josie also really suffers in the final recast.  Nadine Stenovitch may have shared Amy Carlson's haircut, but she had none of the charisma or sexual chemistry. 

It also didn't help when they recast Gary with John Littlefield.  I know that they wound up together IRL, but it is a bummer when both characters in a couple get recast.

Does anyone know the story of why they fired and then rehired Mr Littlefield?  He left in May 1999, and SOD wrote that he was going to be replaced, then he returned a month later and stayed until the finale.

John Littlefield is leaving Another World this spring Littlefield Joined the show in April 1998 replacing Tim Gibbs(Now Kevin on one life to live}The departure is storyline dicated this was reported from Sod

On 11/25/2023 at 7:32 PM, Mona Kane Croft said:

Robin -- I probably would agree she is/was a long term ingenue.  She was on GH for many years and never permanently lost a man to a bad-girl (at least not that I recall). And she never turned bad or went crazy.  So let's add Robin to the list.

I also agree! Definitely add Robin Scorpio to the list!

On 11/25/2023 at 8:55 PM, Donna L. Bridges said:

Robin is an aberration. Always, in every way. And it was not very much a good girl act to have unprotected sex with a hard-living street kid who used drugs. 

While having unprotected sex with Stone certainly wasn't a good move, I don't think this qualifies Robin as not a good girl. Rather, I believe Robin's actions exemplify the behavior of an ingenue: it was the naïveté characteristic of an ingenue that caused trusting young Robin to sleep with Stone. It was the mistake made by Robin the teenaged ingenue that allowed her to grow into Robin the bright young medical student who studied in Paris and finally become Robin the adult, a surgeon who saves lives.

 

Edited November 29, 20232 yr by China Jones
I left out a word.