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Why you never got into the Bell soaps


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I think Alvin has done a good job highlighting one of the key pieces of Bell success -- consistency, familiarity.

At the same time, people are giving such short schrift to the stories and the writing.

I mean, the sheer number of amazing stories on this show is overwhelming: Lorie steals Leslie's boyfriend and drives her mad; Vanessa frames Lorie for her "murder"; Nikki joins the New World cult and is rescued by Paul and Peggy and Steve; Nikki accidentally kills Walter Addison (her john) and evades prosecution; Rick Daros goes insane and kidnaps Nikki...

I pick older stories simply to say there have always been compelling, dramatic tales, with characters and actors the viewers love (some of the highest "Q" ratings in daytime). Pacing and dialogue have long been "old school", but that changed pretty fundamentally with LML, and has remained changed under the MAB regime.

But you know what the BIGGEST part of the Bell (esp. Y&R) success is, IMO? The writers understand that a DINNER PARTY can be the most fascinating setting for drama. The best cliffhanger can be having disparate parties -- many of whom don't like each other -- arriving at a party.

Agnes Nixon used to know that. I remember gatherings that she's have Phoebe Tyler give, with an uncomfortble mix of people. Just combine in a room and stir.

THAT is good soap. No gunfights, sword fights, stolen babies, etc. The key thing is the dinner party. These days, Y&R and B&B are really the lone shows that still give us that.

Upthread, Sylph also implied that I was not "experimental". I'm not even sure what that means...so I'm not going to try to respond. I've watched just about every serial on daytime and primetime--not all with equal consistency. Y&R is the only daytime show that kept me coming back, decade after decade.

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The nipples? The big hair and jewelry?

That would've been my next guess.

Listen, I think the biggest part of Bell's success can be whittled down to three letters: S-E-X. His characters never had any more of it than any other writer's, but they sure did pine alot for it; and it was that crushing sexual frustration which made for juicy viewing for the folks at home.

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Yes, Deborah Adair from her brief return (1986? 1987?) to Y&R to fill in for Brenda Dickson.

Adair remains my favorite Jill (yes, more than Walton). For me, it would be (1) Adair, (2) Walton, (3) Dickson, (4) Gideon

I'm not actually sure she was initially right for Jill...she seemed far too sophisticated. But she made Jill into this beautiful, compelling creature with the most expressive eyes and voice. I couldn't take my eyes off her.

Back in the 1970s, the s-e-x story was officially a big part of Y&R's success.

I think that the huge rivalries and feuds, the uncomfortable encounters...are way more important than the s-e-x.

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For me it's definitely not that Y&R is too slow for my short attention span...I would rather watch a 1970s episode of Ryan's Hope than just about anything in daytime. But that show had depth and nuance and life in its acting and writing to make what was ostensibly very slow-moving and non-sensational material compelling. As for the Bell shows, I agree with some of the comments already mentioned. The dialogue/acting often has seemed stilted when I've tuned in. It has seemed like these shows want to be cinematic and glossy even though I've always been able to tell that they are produced on budgets in the same ballpark as the NY soaps, which at their best aimed to be more like (off) off Broadway shows featuring energetic character actors who could think on their feet and transport their audience to a world that the production values could not always convey. Also Y&R and B&B are centered on exclusively beautiful, rich people, and I've found the tone of the stories to be rather misogynistic. Why beautiful, successful women would demean themselves for the likes of Victor Newman or Ridge Forrester remains a mystery to me. I prefer strong, independent female characters; dialogue that has life to it and actors who bring subtle, raw emotion to it; and at least some "normal" characters who look and live like people you might know in real life to balance out the supermodels turned corporate tycoons. Not that any of that exists on any other soaps now.

Ironically, though I've tried to watch at different times in recent years and still find the characters and stories to be kind of bland and uninvolving, B&B and especially Y&R are now likely the most down-to-earth, homey soaps on the air. Everyone may live in a mansion and be ridiculously beautiful, but at least they're dealing with stories completely rooted in (somewhat) real emotions instead of time travel and such. The women may live to be wanted by men, but at least you know they're not going to be brutally murdered on screen. (We'll see if the misogyny doesn't get worse with Paul Rauch around.) I bet that's why Y&R really took off in the '80s, and was later able to help propel B&B to strong ratings with all of those cross-overs - Y&R was the one show that stuck to its vision after every other soap tried to have their own Luke and Laura saving the world. Plenty of soaps have had flashes of brilliance in the last 25-30 years that I would prefer to watch than the Bell shows, but nothing like what it sounds like, say, AMC had going throughout the '70s, when it turned out stories that were as consistent and true to its own unique identity as Y&R has done pretty much ever since, and eventually AMC reached # 1 in the ratings by building up an audience that was looking for that. Other shows probably lost a lot of viewers during the "down" periods in the last few decades, who never bothered to come back when they had renaissances. But Y&R has probably hung onto more of the viewers who sought out what it had to offer than other shows.

On another note, I am probably opening a can of worms here, but I also found it interesting to learn not too long ago that Y&R and B&B have been produced by a family of Republicans. In hindsight, I've definitely always felt when I've watched shows written by writers like Claire Labine, Agnes Nixon, Nancy Curlee, etc. that someone who may be coming from a similar viewpoint of the world is somehow involved...suffice it to say, not so much when I've checked out the Bell shows, and I'll just leave it at that.

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Not to go off topic, but I just switched mine to Jess Walton :lol:

My favorite is Dickson then Walton. But I love the way Walton looks in my avatar. Adair looks so stunning in yours. I think Adair filled in for Dickson in 1984 and again in 1987. That was probably from 1987. That is definitely a Brenda's Jill look.

Okay, back to the main topic................

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This makes you wonder why other soaps were quick to replicate the flash in the pan success of Marlena's possession or Natalie in the well but not the formula that's kept Y&R at the top of the soap heap for 2 decades. I've always wondered that since I started watching Y&R in '99. Why was AMC trying to be like Sex and the City or OLTL trying to be a monthly book club mystery when they could just be, I dunno, themselves?

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Yeah I see what you mean. Y&R was never one to push the envelope, B&B as well. Y&R always stuck to sex and corporate intrigue. B&B always stuck with the crap they are still airing.

What I think would make a show like B&B more desirable would have been if it was more fashion based like say, I don't know, The Devil Wear's Prada? Models, sexy people, gays, etc. The REAL world of fashion. Interns galore! Also, I don't think LA was a good setting for B&B, it should have been New York if they wanted to pull off real stories of the real high-end world of Fashion. It's Donna Karen of New York, not LA. Tom Ford, Ralph Lauren, Vince, etc. NY based lines. The highest of the high end fashion houses are either based in NYC or Europe, not Los Angeles. Andrew Christian is the only LA designer I can think of at the moment, and he is mostly underwear and B&B would never be able to pull off a good story with a house like that.

I know people could argue there is Brooke's Bedroom, but I always felt that they were trying to copy NBC's Veronica's Closet with Kristy Alley, which of course was set in NYC.

I don't think the Bell's knew what they were doing when they created B&B. GH's Kate Howard knows more about fashion.

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I disagree on the Y&R part, while the show had high amounts of sex and corporate intrigue, they'd also work the occasional social issue storyline in there - be it AIDS, cancer, alcoholism, rape, whatever. Y&R's always had a realistic undertone to its big and glamorous image.

However, when Y&R did their social issue storyline, my goodness, the dialogue was horrendous. They'd spew all these facts to you as if you were a dumb student in a classroom. Y&R's old fashion dialogue made it all a bit hilarious to watch.

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I TOTALLY disagree with that statement. Y&R has pushed LOTS of envelopes. Some HUGE examples:

1974: Jill and Phillip romance... 18 year old girl, 47 year old man

1975: Liz Foster pulls the plug on her husband's life Support (long before we heard of Kevorkian)

1976: Lorie finds out the man she's in love with is her half brother, and don't CARE... wants to be with him anyway.

1977: Kay is so hurt by men that she considers a lesbian interlude

1978: Jill performs Tracheotomy on Stuart Brooks with a razor blade (compelling PSA story)

1982: Vanessa Commits suicide and frames Lorie for murder

1983: Jill screws her stepson and gets pregnant

1984: Traci OD's on diet pills and wrecks her car (very afterchool special)

1986: Lauren is stalked by her fan club manager and buried alive

1986: they take a black actor and paint him white.

And those are just a few... plenty of envelope pushing there, and some things were quite clever and unique (especially the tracheotomy)

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But for the most part, I think Y&R really plays it safe. I know of many of those storylines, especially the last one, painting the black actor white. Didn't that get a lot of bad publicity? Or at least that's the impression I got from watching Y&R's E! True Hollywood Story and on Brenda Dickson's pop up video version as well. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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I think they may have played it a bit safer in the 90's and 2000's. And YES, the SL where they painted Phil Morris white caused a big stink. But I tell you, the Liz/Bill Foster Euthanasia SL was really PROGRESSIVE for 1975. This type of thing wasn't even talked about at that time.

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I think peopl have hit the nail on the head in regards to how Y&R has been able to be the #1 soap for 20 years, and that is consistency for sure. Aside from the LML era, the show has remained pretty much the same. You still tune in and see about 6 or 7 core characters, which still receive decent amounts of storyline. You sure as hell cannot say that about the ABC shows. I fell in love with Y&R because it was over the top soap, glamorous mixed with the community feel, social awareness, and above all strong acting. The slow pace for me has always worked for Y&R.... its very hard to explain for me, it just works. The reason LML's Y&R failed IMO is her need to speed the pacing up. It threw the entire show out of kilter and ultimately was her downfall.

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I was watching and LML did not throw the show out of kilter.

First, she was really only unfettered in 2007. And even then, the actors grounded her.

Second, while she did outrageous plots and disregarded history/character, the "bones" of each character were mostly similar.

For a fan who doesn't pay attention to credits, I'll bet even during the LML era they didn't notice that much of a difference.

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